4 ms·

> Ok so there was a long period of time when "white" people didn't have white fathers. But earlier you said that's not possible. That's not what I'm saying. I'

> Ok so there was a long period of time when "white" people didn't have white fathers. But earlier you said that's not possible. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that, for example, the 100th generation of White people would be different from the 10,000th generation of white people. White females can't come into being without White fathers. They could during the formation of the White race. But they can't now. > You and I both agree that some people that were previously referred to as non-white are now commonly referred to as white not a contradiction > Ancestry is one part of the muddled definition that racists try to worm their way around into being objective Biological race is just ancestry. > The truth is there's no objective basis for race, it is all made up, and it changes pretty constantly What about ancestry. > d consider myself white but I have Polish (Slavic) and Scottish (previously non-white) ancestry. But, at some point, it became fine for me and people like me to call ourselves white. The English would have disagreed, as recently as the 1850s. I'm not sure whether they would have. Doesn't matter either way. Racialist beliefs could have a totally illogical origin and yet be entirely correct. Beware the fallacy fallacy.

tomlockwood 3y ago
> White females can't come into being without White fathers. They could during the formation of the White race. But they can't now. The white race is continually being formed, which is evidenced by the changing attitudes towards whether Italians, Greeks, Irish, Scottish and Polish people are white - amongst others. You'll find a tonne of people that disagree over whether Polish people, and others, are white. There's no central authority that definitively decides. > Biological race is just ancestry. What's the scientific definition of race? Feel free to use biology papers for this discussion.
- calderknight 3y ago
  There's no "the" scientific definition of race. There are various definitions of race that could be called scientific, although I'm not totally sure what it means for a definition to be scientific. The only thing that could be called "the" scientific definition of race is the very unscientific definition that generally emerges like this: > Genetic variation is greater within groups than between them :^) There is no biological justification for racial groupings :^) Race is purely a social construct :^) Which admittedly isn't much of a definition but does make it clear (incorrectly) that there is no valid biological justification for racialism. I define a race just like dictionaries did before the race-doesn't-exist-except-as-a-social-construct movement was established did: >a group of people having common ancestors
  - tomlockwood 3y ago
    Don't all humans have common ancestors?
    - calderknight 3y ago
      Yes, as far as I know all living things have common ancestors. A definition I wrote myself is this: > A race: a people who have been largely or totally isolated (in terms of procreation) from other peoples for a very great number of generations. Which is still very far from perfect. Definitions are difficult.
      - tomlockwood 3y ago
        During what period (please tell me the years so I can understand) were white people "largely or totally isolated" from other people? In what area (would be great if you could show on a map) were they isolated?
        calderknight 3y ago
        from their origin until today sorry not gonna do any maps, doesn't seem right to put 5x more effort into this conversation than you are
        tomlockwood 3y ago
        Alright, fair enough. I just haven't seen a map or a time period laid out that's ever explained this mythical whiteness. I don't think such a map exists, and all the racists I talk to always struggle to provide one. It'd be good to get a solid historically and biologically accurate outline from an intellectual heavyweight like yourself! Thanks for playing! What year did they originate and where, by the way?
        calderknight 3y ago
        I'm not an intellectual heavy-weight. I am good at formal logical and, also relevantly, at countering the statement "there is more genetic variation within racial groups than between them". I also care about the truth more than anything else which I guess is a good first step toward being an intellectual. I don't think I could make a good map of where the White race has lived over time even if I watnted to. I think it started somewhere in Europe in like 15,000 BC (very roughly), then spread throughout Europe, then had a colonial period during the last millennia where it colonised all over the world. Certainly I'm very far from an expert on this and it would depend obviously on the exact definition of the White race being used.

tomlockwood 3y ago

> White females can't come into being without White fathers. They could during the formation of the White race. But they can't now. The white race is continually being formed, which is evidenced by the changing attitudes towards whether Italians, Greeks, Irish, Scottish and Polish people are white - amongst others. You'll find a tonne of people that disagree over whether Polish people, and others, are white. There's no central authority that definitively decides. > Biological race is just ancestry. What's the scientific definition of race? Feel free to use biology papers for this discussion.

calderknight 3y ago
There's no "the" scientific definition of race. There are various definitions of race that could be called scientific, although I'm not totally sure what it means for a definition to be scientific. The only thing that could be called "the" scientific definition of race is the very unscientific definition that generally emerges like this: > Genetic variation is greater within groups than between them :^) There is no biological justification for racial groupings :^) Race is purely a social construct :^) Which admittedly isn't much of a definition but does make it clear (incorrectly) that there is no valid biological justification for racialism. I define a race just like dictionaries did before the race-doesn't-exist-except-as-a-social-construct movement was established did: >a group of people having common ancestors
- tomlockwood 3y ago
  Don't all humans have common ancestors?
  - calderknight 3y ago
    Yes, as far as I know all living things have common ancestors. A definition I wrote myself is this: > A race: a people who have been largely or totally isolated (in terms of procreation) from other peoples for a very great number of generations. Which is still very far from perfect. Definitions are difficult.
    - tomlockwood 3y ago
      During what period (please tell me the years so I can understand) were white people "largely or totally isolated" from other people? In what area (would be great if you could show on a map) were they isolated?
      - calderknight 3y ago
        from their origin until today sorry not gonna do any maps, doesn't seem right to put 5x more effort into this conversation than you are
        tomlockwood 3y ago
        Alright, fair enough. I just haven't seen a map or a time period laid out that's ever explained this mythical whiteness. I don't think such a map exists, and all the racists I talk to always struggle to provide one. It'd be good to get a solid historically and biologically accurate outline from an intellectual heavyweight like yourself! Thanks for playing! What year did they originate and where, by the way?
        calderknight 3y ago
        I'm not an intellectual heavy-weight. I am good at formal logical and, also relevantly, at countering the statement "there is more genetic variation within racial groups than between them". I also care about the truth more than anything else which I guess is a good first step toward being an intellectual. I don't think I could make a good map of where the White race has lived over time even if I watnted to. I think it started somewhere in Europe in like 15,000 BC (very roughly), then spread throughout Europe, then had a colonial period during the last millennia where it colonised all over the world. Certainly I'm very far from an expert on this and it would depend obviously on the exact definition of the White race being used.