7 ms·

Female Passengers Say They Were Targeted for TSA Body Scanners

114 points by pwg 15y ago

techMAC 15y ago
Those agents should be fired!
hansbo 15y ago
Really disturbing - but not unexpected. Give people the power to choose who they want to see naked and it's inevitable that some people will abuse this power, I think.
Mahh 15y ago
I wonder if finding sketchiness in those image results could be automated. Everyone through the machine stands in the same position, they're just of sort of various statures. I mean, the supposed upgrade would mean that they are reducing the ability of operators to observe images. What's the point in it then? At a certain point, the humans won't be able to beat software. I know the reasoning of security theater(that none of this actually matters), but it's pretty fun to imagine what we could solve with technology and software.
- shantanubala 15y ago
  It's a little difficult. If an employee screws up badly, they can be fired. If the software screws up badly, we can fix it, but people still lose their trust immediately.
dancole 15y ago
The conclusion by a friend's father, when he went from Minneapolis to Chicago and back, was that the TSA only pulled a side young females (20s & 30s) for full body scans.
- dhimes 15y ago
  I've been pulled aside twice in about 10 or so flights. I'm male, old, and have a gut. Anecdotes != data. My regular comment has been, "I don't mind the scans, but I'd appreciate it if they would stop giggling."
  - bmj 15y ago
    This has been my experience with my family, too (wife and two young kids). We've stressed about the pat-down v. scan each time we've flown, but the scanners haven't even been on when we've flown out of PGH.
  - epoxyhockey 15y ago
    During 2010 and the first half of 2011, my significant other (female) was randomly selected for the scanners 11 out of 12 times. The 1 time she wasn't selected was because the scanner was not in operation. I (male) was randomly selected 0 times. Every time she asked for a pat down, the female TSA worker (who would be performing the pat down) would scowl at the young male worker. It seemed that female pat downs were in higher demand, making her job harder. Now that more scanners have been installed at the airports we frequent, the TSA workers try to send almost 100% of the people through the scanners. Though, my significant other now gets directed over to the metal detector if there is a long line for the scanner.
  - Symmetry 15y ago
    Well, anecdote doesn't tell you how often this happens, but it is an existence proof. I think I would expect a priori that some TSA agents would be trying to do a good job and some would just be in it to letch on passengers. The question is how prevalent the later is compared to the former, and why the TSA isn't trying to distinguish them themselves.
CognitiveLens 15y ago
Is the statement from the TSA claiming they are mapping each individual body scan to a standardized body model? Doesn't this distort the scan and therefore reduce its value? I don't quite understand how they could adjust it so that it can no longer see the shape of an individual's breasts, for example, but can still identify suspicious bulges on the body. I don't mean to be crude, but I am very suspicious about this claim.
- jonhohle 15y ago
  From what I understand, this system is only being installed on millimeter wave scanners and not on backscatter devices. In my experiences, the backscatter devices are much more prevalent.
  - epoxyhockey 15y ago
    You are correct. Here is more info (plus a small photo) of what the new AIT software upgrade looks like: http://www.tsa.gov/approach/tech/ait/index.shtm http://www.tsa.gov/approach/tech/ait/index.shtm Even with the new software, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a team of TSA employees looking at the raw images in a dark room somewhere.
- maxerickson 15y ago
  If you accept the proposition that the software is a more reliable inspector than a person, the mapping makes perfect sense. There is no doubt that software will be more consistent than various humans, but that doesn't say much about whether it is more useful.
shareme 15y ago
SO when will we end this security theater cluster fuck? I say if all depts have to face budget cuts body scans go away
- nextparadigms 15y ago
  Never under Obama or most Republican candidates (you can take a guess who's against the TSA), unless there's a major public outcry, at least as big as the one for SOPA.
daeken 15y ago
While I'm very, very anti-TSA and this sort of thing wouldn't surprise me a single bit, saying you "found patterns in complaint data" is silly. Such data is obviously biased from the start; we can do far better than this, with simple actual statistics on persons examined. But in the end, this is what you get when your "random screenings" aren't actually random in any way, not recorded for future analysis, and (due to the previous point) not audited for bias. You can make arguments why we wouldn't actually want random screenings in this stuff, but I think we all know that it's pure security theater regardless.
jbattle 15y ago
I'd prefer this technology goes away, but if it doesn't, I'd be more comfortable if there was an impermeable wall between the people who see the scans and the people who select passengers for scanning. I don't see why they even need to be at the same facility. Why isn't there some central scanning office somewhere where all the scans are reviewed? That would eliminate a lot of the opportunity for abuse. Of course you introduce the risk of network issues shutting down the scanners - but - uh - no big loss
- flyt 15y ago
  Because I would prefer an image of me being sent to a centralized center where faceless, unnamed government employees equivalent to postal workers make decisions about my character without any option for petition, verification, or identification.
jchrisa 15y ago
I rather enjoy opting-out of this crap. The TSA folks seem to respect it, especially when they ask the reason for their clipboard and I say "health." I've never been millimeter scanned and frankly the radiation aspects of it scare me. What I don't understand is why anyone wouldn't opt-out. Even when I've been on the late side for my flights, the time a pat down takes doesn't make a difference in catching the flight.
- gravitronic 15y ago
  I've been through it once before I even realized what was happening. They didn't tell me "you are now being subjected to the new millimeter wave scanner" or offer me the choice of a pat-down, they just pointed and herded my fiancee and I through the machine without any mention of what it was or that I had a choice to not go through it. It was only after that I realized it was the new scanner I had just gone through, and I only realized that because I read sites like HN. So, to other travellers: when you've opted-out did you basically have to halt in your tracks and demand an opt-out? I guess I naively thought opting out would be more obvious... but I was wrong.
  - jchrisa 15y ago
    I usually try to play it cool until the moment the point me toward the radiation machine. Then I say "I'd like to opt-out". They are always very professional about it, and have a procedure (different in different airports) where you basically stand there and watch other poor suckers go through the machine, until they find someone to pat you down. The reason I play it cool is because about 1/3 of the time they end up pointing me toward the regular metal detector at the last minute (I guess I'm not a cute girl...)
    - bmelton 15y ago
      I always opt-out, and it's never been a civil affair. The _least_ obnoxious was when the TSA agent heard my "I'd like to opt out" message, shouted "REFUSAL", made me stand _next_ to the scanner for approximately 15 minutes before finding someone who could pat me down, occasionally glaring at me for effect. The pat-down was respectful, though it was done inches away from my 9 year old daughter, but the core of the issue, to me anyway, is that I object to both the new scanners AND the pat-down. I've adopted an "only fly when I have to" policy, which meant 6 hour drives replaced flights to New York, but there is regrettably no way of avoiding all my business travel in lieu of driving.
pnathan 15y ago
The desire of some people to look at others naked should come as a shock to no one. Plus, the abuse of the power of looking at people naked without retribution should surprise no one. This cuts to the core of humanity: sexuality and power.
darxius 15y ago
In most Canadian airports passengers step on a map which randomizes some numbers and then determines if you go for scanning or not. Of course, you also have the option to opt out. On a side note, did the guy say "gingerale" at the end of the video?
- Symmetry 15y ago
  Yeah, this is a sort of problem with well known solutions which aren't being used in the US for reasons that are entirely opaque.
Craiggybear 15y ago
Ugh. Its a licence to sleaze with ease. And no comeback. Deplorable. Makes one's flesh literally creep.
napierzaza 15y ago
Wait, so the machines have been upgraded to not provide any information at all? This can only be a bald faced lie. What would the be the point in using the machine if it only shows and "outline" or intentionally "blurs" the image? So nothing is visible? Can they still see the weapons or whatever they are looking for?
shpoonj 15y ago
HN has been mocked repeatedly for having stories about TSA scanners on the front page... Yet here we go again. Anyone care to explain how this is relevant to hackers?
jrockway 15y ago
I hate the TSA and everything, but can't you just look at someone and imagine what they look like naked in much higher resolution than the body scanners provide? People are afraid of being naked, but we all pretty much look the same.
- jberryman 15y ago
  Don't understand your point. Should we say to women: "you have no right to feel violated because the blurry outline of your breasts and vagina looks very similar to the blurry outline of that woman behind you (trust me I've seen a lot of blurry vaginas)"? as an aside, I have to say I felt pretty uncomfortable seeing a man send my SO through the scanner; we weren't expecting it at our airport and she didn't really know what it was until she was already through. The power dynamic was a big part of this.
  - jrockway 15y ago
    Why do you care about the gender of the rent-a-cop that tells you to stand inside an x-ray machine? He doesn't see the images, and even then, what difference does the gender make? There are plenty of people that are sexually attracted to people of the same gender. I don't like the body scanners, but I could care less if someone sees me naked. The reason we should fight body scanners is because the cost/benefit ratio sucks. It takes too long to move a line of people through these things, so they aren't used on everyone. So all you've done is thwart terrorist groups that only have one member. There could be no airport security at all and it's unlikely that many more people would die. If we lost one 747 a year, it would be a rounding error compared to the number of people dying in car accidents or from excessive consumption of unhealthy food. So why do we spend any time solving this non-problem? It just doesn't make sense.
    - shallowwater 15y ago
      I think the point to be made is that not everyone has the same comfort zone as you do. You may not care about strangers seeing you naked, but other people do. Being naked in front of someone can be an intensely vulnerable experience, and the feelings of vulnerability can be compounded by a wide range of factors, including power differentials, the fact that they are strangers, or that those strangers may be letching on your naked body. For instance, I don't particularly care about being naked in front of people, but when I feel like I'm being objectified/letched on, that makes me uncomfortable, regardless of my state of dress.
julian_t 15y ago
I flew through Kiev airport last week, and the metal detector was in front of the scanner... so if the detector beeps when you step through, you get told to halt in the scanner. If it doesn't beep, you walk through. No idea what would have happened if I'd tried to opt out, and the relative levels of their English and my Russian meant I didn't really feel like finding out.

114 points by pwg 15y ago

Those agents should be fired!

Really disturbing - but not unexpected. Give people the power to choose who they want to see naked and it's inevitable that some people will abuse this power, I think.

Mahh 15y ago

I wonder if finding sketchiness in those image results could be automated. Everyone through the machine stands in the same position, they're just of sort of various statures. I mean, the supposed upgrade would mean that they are reducing the ability of operators to observe images. What's the point in it then? At a certain point, the humans won't be able to beat software. I know the reasoning of security theater(that none of this actually matters), but it's pretty fun to imagine what we could solve with technology and software.

shantanubala 15y ago
It's a little difficult. If an employee screws up badly, they can be fired. If the software screws up badly, we can fix it, but people still lose their trust immediately.

dancole 15y ago

The conclusion by a friend's father, when he went from Minneapolis to Chicago and back, was that the TSA only pulled a side young females (20s & 30s) for full body scans.

dhimes 15y ago
I've been pulled aside twice in about 10 or so flights. I'm male, old, and have a gut. Anecdotes != data. My regular comment has been, "I don't mind the scans, but I'd appreciate it if they would stop giggling."
- bmj 15y ago
  This has been my experience with my family, too (wife and two young kids). We've stressed about the pat-down v. scan each time we've flown, but the scanners haven't even been on when we've flown out of PGH.
- epoxyhockey 15y ago
  During 2010 and the first half of 2011, my significant other (female) was randomly selected for the scanners 11 out of 12 times. The 1 time she wasn't selected was because the scanner was not in operation. I (male) was randomly selected 0 times. Every time she asked for a pat down, the female TSA worker (who would be performing the pat down) would scowl at the young male worker. It seemed that female pat downs were in higher demand, making her job harder. Now that more scanners have been installed at the airports we frequent, the TSA workers try to send almost 100% of the people through the scanners. Though, my significant other now gets directed over to the metal detector if there is a long line for the scanner.
- Symmetry 15y ago
  Well, anecdote doesn't tell you how often this happens, but it is an existence proof. I think I would expect a priori that some TSA agents would be trying to do a good job and some would just be in it to letch on passengers. The question is how prevalent the later is compared to the former, and why the TSA isn't trying to distinguish them themselves.

CognitiveLens 15y ago

Is the statement from the TSA claiming they are mapping each individual body scan to a standardized body model? Doesn't this distort the scan and therefore reduce its value? I don't quite understand how they could adjust it so that it can no longer see the shape of an individual's breasts, for example, but can still identify suspicious bulges on the body. I don't mean to be crude, but I am very suspicious about this claim.

jonhohle 15y ago
From what I understand, this system is only being installed on millimeter wave scanners and not on backscatter devices. In my experiences, the backscatter devices are much more prevalent.
- epoxyhockey 15y ago
  You are correct. Here is more info (plus a small photo) of what the new AIT software upgrade looks like: http://www.tsa.gov/approach/tech/ait/index.shtm http://www.tsa.gov/approach/tech/ait/index.shtm Even with the new software, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a team of TSA employees looking at the raw images in a dark room somewhere.
maxerickson 15y ago
If you accept the proposition that the software is a more reliable inspector than a person, the mapping makes perfect sense. There is no doubt that software will be more consistent than various humans, but that doesn't say much about whether it is more useful.

shareme 15y ago

SO when will we end this security theater cluster fuck? I say if all depts have to face budget cuts body scans go away

nextparadigms 15y ago
Never under Obama or most Republican candidates (you can take a guess who's against the TSA), unless there's a major public outcry, at least as big as the one for SOPA.

daeken 15y ago

While I'm very, very anti-TSA and this sort of thing wouldn't surprise me a single bit, saying you "found patterns in complaint data" is silly. Such data is obviously biased from the start; we can do far better than this, with simple actual statistics on persons examined. But in the end, this is what you get when your "random screenings" aren't actually random in any way, not recorded for future analysis, and (due to the previous point) not audited for bias. You can make arguments why we wouldn't actually want random screenings in this stuff, but I think we all know that it's pure security theater regardless.

jbattle 15y ago

I'd prefer this technology goes away, but if it doesn't, I'd be more comfortable if there was an impermeable wall between the people who see the scans and the people who select passengers for scanning. I don't see why they even need to be at the same facility. Why isn't there some central scanning office somewhere where all the scans are reviewed? That would eliminate a lot of the opportunity for abuse. Of course you introduce the risk of network issues shutting down the scanners - but - uh - no big loss

flyt 15y ago
Because I would prefer an image of me being sent to a centralized center where faceless, unnamed government employees equivalent to postal workers make decisions about my character without any option for petition, verification, or identification.

jchrisa 15y ago

I rather enjoy opting-out of this crap. The TSA folks seem to respect it, especially when they ask the reason for their clipboard and I say "health." I've never been millimeter scanned and frankly the radiation aspects of it scare me. What I don't understand is why anyone wouldn't opt-out. Even when I've been on the late side for my flights, the time a pat down takes doesn't make a difference in catching the flight.

gravitronic 15y ago
I've been through it once before I even realized what was happening. They didn't tell me "you are now being subjected to the new millimeter wave scanner" or offer me the choice of a pat-down, they just pointed and herded my fiancee and I through the machine without any mention of what it was or that I had a choice to not go through it. It was only after that I realized it was the new scanner I had just gone through, and I only realized that because I read sites like HN. So, to other travellers: when you've opted-out did you basically have to halt in your tracks and demand an opt-out? I guess I naively thought opting out would be more obvious... but I was wrong.
- jchrisa 15y ago
  I usually try to play it cool until the moment the point me toward the radiation machine. Then I say "I'd like to opt-out". They are always very professional about it, and have a procedure (different in different airports) where you basically stand there and watch other poor suckers go through the machine, until they find someone to pat you down. The reason I play it cool is because about 1/3 of the time they end up pointing me toward the regular metal detector at the last minute (I guess I'm not a cute girl...)
  - bmelton 15y ago
    I always opt-out, and it's never been a civil affair. The _least_ obnoxious was when the TSA agent heard my "I'd like to opt out" message, shouted "REFUSAL", made me stand _next_ to the scanner for approximately 15 minutes before finding someone who could pat me down, occasionally glaring at me for effect. The pat-down was respectful, though it was done inches away from my 9 year old daughter, but the core of the issue, to me anyway, is that I object to both the new scanners AND the pat-down. I've adopted an "only fly when I have to" policy, which meant 6 hour drives replaced flights to New York, but there is regrettably no way of avoiding all my business travel in lieu of driving.

pnathan 15y ago

The desire of some people to look at others naked should come as a shock to no one. Plus, the abuse of the power of looking at people naked without retribution should surprise no one. This cuts to the core of humanity: sexuality and power.

darxius 15y ago

In most Canadian airports passengers step on a map which randomizes some numbers and then determines if you go for scanning or not. Of course, you also have the option to opt out. On a side note, did the guy say "gingerale" at the end of the video?

Symmetry 15y ago
Yeah, this is a sort of problem with well known solutions which aren't being used in the US for reasons that are entirely opaque.

Craiggybear 15y ago

Ugh. Its a licence to sleaze with ease. And no comeback. Deplorable. Makes one's flesh literally creep.

napierzaza 15y ago

Wait, so the machines have been upgraded to not provide any information at all? This can only be a bald faced lie. What would the be the point in using the machine if it only shows and "outline" or intentionally "blurs" the image? So nothing is visible? Can they still see the weapons or whatever they are looking for?

shpoonj 15y ago

HN has been mocked repeatedly for having stories about TSA scanners on the front page... Yet here we go again. Anyone care to explain how this is relevant to hackers?

jrockway 15y ago

I hate the TSA and everything, but can't you just look at someone and imagine what they look like naked in much higher resolution than the body scanners provide? People are afraid of being naked, but we all pretty much look the same.

jberryman 15y ago
Don't understand your point. Should we say to women: "you have no right to feel violated because the blurry outline of your breasts and vagina looks very similar to the blurry outline of that woman behind you (trust me I've seen a lot of blurry vaginas)"? as an aside, I have to say I felt pretty uncomfortable seeing a man send my SO through the scanner; we weren't expecting it at our airport and she didn't really know what it was until she was already through. The power dynamic was a big part of this.
- jrockway 15y ago
  Why do you care about the gender of the rent-a-cop that tells you to stand inside an x-ray machine? He doesn't see the images, and even then, what difference does the gender make? There are plenty of people that are sexually attracted to people of the same gender. I don't like the body scanners, but I could care less if someone sees me naked. The reason we should fight body scanners is because the cost/benefit ratio sucks. It takes too long to move a line of people through these things, so they aren't used on everyone. So all you've done is thwart terrorist groups that only have one member. There could be no airport security at all and it's unlikely that many more people would die. If we lost one 747 a year, it would be a rounding error compared to the number of people dying in car accidents or from excessive consumption of unhealthy food. So why do we spend any time solving this non-problem? It just doesn't make sense.
  - shallowwater 15y ago
    I think the point to be made is that not everyone has the same comfort zone as you do. You may not care about strangers seeing you naked, but other people do. Being naked in front of someone can be an intensely vulnerable experience, and the feelings of vulnerability can be compounded by a wide range of factors, including power differentials, the fact that they are strangers, or that those strangers may be letching on your naked body. For instance, I don't particularly care about being naked in front of people, but when I feel like I'm being objectified/letched on, that makes me uncomfortable, regardless of my state of dress.

julian_t 15y ago

I flew through Kiev airport last week, and the metal detector was in front of the scanner... so if the detector beeps when you step through, you get told to halt in the scanner. If it doesn't beep, you walk through. No idea what would have happened if I'd tried to opt out, and the relative levels of their English and my Russian meant I didn't really feel like finding out.