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The famous announcement was in regard to permitting unrestricted travel (for a supposedly limited time window). Nothing was said about dismantling the wall (at

The famous announcement was in regard to permitting unrestricted travel (for a supposedly limited time window). Nothing was said about dismantling the wall (at the time or at any point in the future). The "dismantling" itself (which at the outset was more like vandalism and souvenir-grabbing) started happening spontaneously after crowds began to overwhelm the border crossing, and the ensuing carnival atmosphere took over.

hutzlibu 3y ago
"vandalism" I am not sure "vandalism" is the right term, when it comes to damaging a prison wall for a whole nation. It was a symbol of fear and oppression. People were shot at the wall every year, so sure, not everyone (or maybe only a few) who joined, were freedom fighters or deeply philosophical about the meaning of what they were doing. But it still was a liberating act, doing something that likely would have got you shot, just the day before. No matter if you would have tried it from the western or eastern side. (even though of course, it was more likely from the eastern side, the western side was already full of graffiti, but actually damaging the wall, also from the western side, would have not been very dangerous. People did do this to help people flee the east on purpose. And some of those helpers did get shot.)
- lisasays 3y ago
  I just meant the first "Wallpecker" blows were decidedly small-scale -- and not part a plan to demolish the wall per se.
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    I know what you meant, so no problem. I just wanted to let you know, that some people might react a bit offended .. (my first reaction was)
- Convolutional 3y ago
  > It was a symbol of fear and oppression The Russians, invaded twice by Germany in the 20th century, sought to withdraw completely from Germany, if it became a neutral country like Switzerland or Austria. The West Germans continually refused this. By 1961 they through in the towel and the west Berlin enclave was sealed off. After the USSR broke up, Russian and German (and western) documents on this were released, which verified what happened at the time. When Germany sought to reunite, the Prime Minister of the UK, Thatcher, sought behind closed doors to stop German reunification. So it was Gorbachev removing impediments to reunification and Thatcher seeking to create them.
  - lisasays 3y ago
    By 1961 they through in the towel and the west Berlin enclave was sealed off. The inevitable anti-fascist protection barrier. Forced into being by the conniving, obstreperous Western machinations, you see. At the end of the day - it was still about putting a bullet in the back of anyone who dared to cross.
    - schroeding 3y ago
      Which becomes clear when you realize that the anti-vehicle / tank ditches and the directional anti-personal mines ("Selbstschussanlagen") were facing the east direction only[1]. West German tanks and military vehicles could have driven over the ditches without major issues. They only worked one way - from east to west. [1] e.g. https://www.siue.edu/GEOGRAPHY/ONLINE/Vogeler/FortifiedFenced&WalledBorders.htm https://www.siue.edu/GEOGRAPHY/ONLINE/Vogeler/FortifiedFence...
  - lostlogin 3y ago
    > The Russians, invaded twice by Germany in the 20th century This is entirely correct, however it also hides Soviet intent. They had tried hard with Germany without result. It wasn’t an invasion, but they were interfering and trying to achieve Revolution.
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      Fun fact, in the beginning of the revolution, Lenin was send to russia by the german army command, in a special army train to destabilize russia. History is ironic.
      - lostlogin 3y ago
        "in a sealed truck like a plague bacillus“ Churchill. There is a good book on it by Catherine Merridale: Lenin on the Train https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29847081-lenin-on-the-train https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29847081-lenin-on-the-tr...
  - 3y ago

hutzlibu 3y ago

"vandalism" I am not sure "vandalism" is the right term, when it comes to damaging a prison wall for a whole nation. It was a symbol of fear and oppression. People were shot at the wall every year, so sure, not everyone (or maybe only a few) who joined, were freedom fighters or deeply philosophical about the meaning of what they were doing. But it still was a liberating act, doing something that likely would have got you shot, just the day before. No matter if you would have tried it from the western or eastern side. (even though of course, it was more likely from the eastern side, the western side was already full of graffiti, but actually damaging the wall, also from the western side, would have not been very dangerous. People did do this to help people flee the east on purpose. And some of those helpers did get shot.)

lisasays 3y ago
I just meant the first "Wallpecker" blows were decidedly small-scale -- and not part a plan to demolish the wall per se.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  I know what you meant, so no problem. I just wanted to let you know, that some people might react a bit offended .. (my first reaction was)
Convolutional 3y ago
> It was a symbol of fear and oppression The Russians, invaded twice by Germany in the 20th century, sought to withdraw completely from Germany, if it became a neutral country like Switzerland or Austria. The West Germans continually refused this. By 1961 they through in the towel and the west Berlin enclave was sealed off. After the USSR broke up, Russian and German (and western) documents on this were released, which verified what happened at the time. When Germany sought to reunite, the Prime Minister of the UK, Thatcher, sought behind closed doors to stop German reunification. So it was Gorbachev removing impediments to reunification and Thatcher seeking to create them.
- lisasays 3y ago
  By 1961 they through in the towel and the west Berlin enclave was sealed off. The inevitable anti-fascist protection barrier. Forced into being by the conniving, obstreperous Western machinations, you see. At the end of the day - it was still about putting a bullet in the back of anyone who dared to cross.
  - schroeding 3y ago
    Which becomes clear when you realize that the anti-vehicle / tank ditches and the directional anti-personal mines ("Selbstschussanlagen") were facing the east direction only[1]. West German tanks and military vehicles could have driven over the ditches without major issues. They only worked one way - from east to west. [1] e.g. https://www.siue.edu/GEOGRAPHY/ONLINE/Vogeler/FortifiedFenced&WalledBorders.htm https://www.siue.edu/GEOGRAPHY/ONLINE/Vogeler/FortifiedFence...
- lostlogin 3y ago
  > The Russians, invaded twice by Germany in the 20th century This is entirely correct, however it also hides Soviet intent. They had tried hard with Germany without result. It wasn’t an invasion, but they were interfering and trying to achieve Revolution.
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    Fun fact, in the beginning of the revolution, Lenin was send to russia by the german army command, in a special army train to destabilize russia. History is ironic.
    - lostlogin 3y ago
      "in a sealed truck like a plague bacillus“ Churchill. There is a good book on it by Catherine Merridale: Lenin on the Train https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29847081-lenin-on-the-train https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29847081-lenin-on-the-tr...
- 3y ago