3 ms·

They didn't touch upon tire/rubber particulate pollution being worse for EVs.

by justinator 3y ago

aresant 3y ago
Is there a referenceable starting point regarding this point?
- justinator 3y ago
  EVs being heavier generally wear tires faster than conventional cars.
konschubert 3y ago
Is there any evidence that this is an actual issue? My understanding was that the particulates from tires are pretty big and don’t really go airborne
- justinator 3y ago
  "There is emerging evidence that tyre wear particles and other particulate matter may contribute to a range of negative health impacts including heart, lung, developmental, reproductive, and cancer outcomes." https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/02/230222210553.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/02/230222210553.h...
  - r00fus 3y ago
    But EVs being worse is handwaved away in the article without any hard data: “ Some are concerned that electric vehicles tend to be heavier, which might increase tyre wear” That’s a fact-free argument.
    - justinator 3y ago
      One could postulate that cars in general aren't all that great for the environment and in this topic, no matter the power source. Replacing 1:1 gas to EVs is maybe a lateral move. Maybe what we need to do is have less cars, and drive those cars less.
    - leetcrew 3y ago
      basic physics intuition suggests that a relatively heavier vehicle with much more torque available from rest would abrade away more tire material in daily use. maybe this could be mitigated with special tires for EVs, but it seems like a pretty reasonable starting assumption. while it would be nice to link an actual study on this, I'm pretty comfortable putting the burden of proof on the position on the opposing position.
      - r00fus 3y ago
        No if you make a claim, you gotta bring facts. If it’s a reasonable one it should be easy. To this date for this assertion - no one has. Could it because the data doesn’t support it?
- justinator 3y ago
  When Driving, Tires Emit Pollution. and EVs Make the Problem Worse https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32689058 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32689058
  - r00fus 3y ago
    The article is also using research based on estimations based on weight. No actual data. So another BS argument. Fact: EVs usually run LRR tires that release less particulate. Also regen braking allows for smoother transitions. EVs because of software controlled acceleration, almost never spin out when starting off the line.
    - justinator 3y ago
      If LRR tires are so beneficial, it seems like ALL cars would use them, regardless of power source. But they're not, are they? Also remember that the most popular US cars sold today are large trucks or SUVs. Would LRR tires make sense to use on those more than just not driving such a big, useless truck everywhere? Again, perhaps the more useful move is to drive less cars, less (and have those cars BE less), than work on other more marginal points, like power plant.
  - pfdietz 3y ago
    Particles from tires could indeed be a problem, but it appears this is because of specific chemicals used. The solution would be to identify and replace those chemicals (like that one, 6PPD, that on exposure to ozone became highly toxic to salmon.) (I'll note that ozone will go down too with widespread adoption of EVs.)
- smitty1110 3y ago
  https://hakaimagazine.com/features/when-rubber-hits-the-road-and-washes-away/ https://hakaimagazine.com/features/when-rubber-hits-the-road...
oblio 3y ago
Also road wear. Trucks (semis for Americans) are much worse but trucks are much fewer and have relatively preset routes. Road wear is apparently the power of 4 in relation to weight. And EVs are much heavier, especially for small cars (think everywhere not the US). Small EVs are 30-50% heavier.
theshrike79 3y ago
The problem started when multi-ton SUVs became the norm. It's not an EV problem, it's a "heavy car problem". A heavy EV doesn't spew the other crap in the air, so the total is still less than an SUV :)

They didn't touch upon tire/rubber particulate pollution being worse for EVs.

aresant 3y ago

Is there a referenceable starting point regarding this point?

justinator 3y ago
EVs being heavier generally wear tires faster than conventional cars.

konschubert 3y ago

Is there any evidence that this is an actual issue? My understanding was that the particulates from tires are pretty big and don’t really go airborne

justinator 3y ago
"There is emerging evidence that tyre wear particles and other particulate matter may contribute to a range of negative health impacts including heart, lung, developmental, reproductive, and cancer outcomes." https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/02/230222210553.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/02/230222210553.h...
- r00fus 3y ago
  But EVs being worse is handwaved away in the article without any hard data: “ Some are concerned that electric vehicles tend to be heavier, which might increase tyre wear” That’s a fact-free argument.
  - justinator 3y ago
    One could postulate that cars in general aren't all that great for the environment and in this topic, no matter the power source. Replacing 1:1 gas to EVs is maybe a lateral move. Maybe what we need to do is have less cars, and drive those cars less.
  - leetcrew 3y ago
    basic physics intuition suggests that a relatively heavier vehicle with much more torque available from rest would abrade away more tire material in daily use. maybe this could be mitigated with special tires for EVs, but it seems like a pretty reasonable starting assumption. while it would be nice to link an actual study on this, I'm pretty comfortable putting the burden of proof on the position on the opposing position.
    - r00fus 3y ago
      No if you make a claim, you gotta bring facts. If it’s a reasonable one it should be easy. To this date for this assertion - no one has. Could it because the data doesn’t support it?
justinator 3y ago
When Driving, Tires Emit Pollution. and EVs Make the Problem Worse https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32689058 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32689058
- r00fus 3y ago
  The article is also using research based on estimations based on weight. No actual data. So another BS argument. Fact: EVs usually run LRR tires that release less particulate. Also regen braking allows for smoother transitions. EVs because of software controlled acceleration, almost never spin out when starting off the line.
  - justinator 3y ago
    If LRR tires are so beneficial, it seems like ALL cars would use them, regardless of power source. But they're not, are they? Also remember that the most popular US cars sold today are large trucks or SUVs. Would LRR tires make sense to use on those more than just not driving such a big, useless truck everywhere? Again, perhaps the more useful move is to drive less cars, less (and have those cars BE less), than work on other more marginal points, like power plant.
- pfdietz 3y ago
  Particles from tires could indeed be a problem, but it appears this is because of specific chemicals used. The solution would be to identify and replace those chemicals (like that one, 6PPD, that on exposure to ozone became highly toxic to salmon.) (I'll note that ozone will go down too with widespread adoption of EVs.)
smitty1110 3y ago
https://hakaimagazine.com/features/when-rubber-hits-the-road-and-washes-away/ https://hakaimagazine.com/features/when-rubber-hits-the-road...

oblio 3y ago

Also road wear. Trucks (semis for Americans) are much worse but trucks are much fewer and have relatively preset routes. Road wear is apparently the power of 4 in relation to weight. And EVs are much heavier, especially for small cars (think everywhere not the US). Small EVs are 30-50% heavier.

theshrike79 3y ago

The problem started when multi-ton SUVs became the norm. It's not an EV problem, it's a "heavy car problem". A heavy EV doesn't spew the other crap in the air, so the total is still less than an SUV :)