5 ms·

Perhaps he should put his money where his mouth is: https://careers.airbnb.com/positions/ https://careers.airbnb.com/positions/ Because "US, except these state

by ElFitz 3y ago

Perhaps he should put his money where his mouth is: https://careers.airbnb.com/positions/ https://careers.airbnb.com/positions/ Because "US, except these states" isn’t exactly hiring "from anywhere".

yarg 3y ago
Time zones and expected levels of education are still significant factors. You generally don't want to be hiring people from regions with a substandard education system - and if they're in another time zone they can spend all night ruining your day before you even start work.
- mkl 3y ago
  It's the employee's education (& skill, experience, etc.) that matters, not the region's.
  - yarg 3y ago
    It's also communication. You can communicate across distance, you cannot communicate across time. > It's the employee's education (& skill, experience, etc.) that matters, not the region's. The quality of educational systems is regionally defined, yes the other aspects are individual, and there's variation in what each individual can get out of the given educational context - but to claim that there's no degree of consistency in the calibre of candidates that come from given regions is ridiculous. There're always exceptions to generalisations - but you seldom want to pick up a single regional employee (except for the smallest of projects), because timely communication is always vital. If the individual is of such an extraordinary calibre that they become a vital hire, it often involves relocation.
- viraptor 3y ago
  > they can spend all night ruining your day before you even start work. Or they can be saving your service in emergency while you stay in bed. I'm not sure why you'd expect a different time zone to mean lower skills than yours.
  - yarg 3y ago
    I'm not - I'm saying that when it's a factor it's a big problem. I've dealt with entire offices of people that were problematic - you could tell when they came in, because builds broke universally in the next half an hour. And that was right at the end of the day. From half four 'till half five I spent my time fucking about rolling back commits and sending emails around the world to tell people to sort their shit out. Yes, there're regions where that's not a problem - the guys in our Poland office had their shit together, but it's not universal.
    - viraptor 3y ago
      That sounds like a management issue. You've got people being counterproductive who were hired, given tasks/permissions at inappropriate skill level and are not being dealt with appropriately. That's really not related to time zone in any way. Sure, it impacts your situation temporarily, but you could experience the same thing from local people working night shift. Let's keep in mind where the responsibility for solving the situation long-term really is.
    - detaro 3y ago
      The only remote (to me) office I had to work with that I'd describe like that was in California. shrug
  - bergie 3y ago
    Yep. When I was working with a very geographically distributed team, I loved being able to file a bug in the end of the workday, and have a fix ready for deployment by the time I opened my laptop next morning.
  - ElFitz 3y ago
    It’s mostly a problem when the main purpose in hiring remotely is to aggressively save money.
    - viraptor 3y ago
      Yes, it's a problem with management rather than with the workers or the timezone.
- ElFitz 3y ago
  Then how about hiring people in Canada? Unless Canada somehow has worse education system than the US? Or, if it’s really only about education systems, Finland? Seriously, if it’s only about education, you can do better than the US.
  - avbanks 3y ago
    I don't want to be rude but the United States has some of the best Universities in the world.
  - 908B64B197 3y ago
    > Then how about hiring people in Canada They all do. But good luck getting a bargain. Canada is a smaller California (population-wise) stretched over 5 timezones. Something you have to keep in mind is that there are two parallel markets over there: SV caliber developers and the rest. The former won't have any issue getting a job in the US (takes maybe a week for a talented engineer to get one). Therefore, comp has to be priced appropriately. The later can't -and likely won't ever be able to- secure a US visa, mostly due to skills (there's a reason they immigrated to Canada, it's way easier and the quotas are close to 10x per capita compared to the US). Some companies leverage this and have floors of international devs they park in Canada for a fraction of their US counterpart through a subsidiary. > Finland The country is a little bit smaller, population-wise, than Minnesota. Great education system, but only produces so many engineers.
zamadatix 3y ago
There is a reasonable difference between anywhere and everywhere. Setting up shop in every state can be a big legal pain, especially if you don't expect many employees there or the particular state has more difficult rules to comply with. Doing so is in no way a requirement for what they are talking about, which is not hiring for having people come in to the office. On the flipside I've been able to convince companies to add a state before. I imagine it gets more difficult the larger the company is though, otherwise someone would have already added your state by that point.
- ElFitz 3y ago
  I would agree with that. Except the guy touts the merits of hiring from anywhere. He seems to think he’s somehow better than all the others he criticises (I, personally, favour remote work. Just not holier-than-thou hypocrites). All while his very own company hires from anywhere. Except outside the US. Except in one state out of ten. If hiring people "from anywhere" is so great, and if even Basecamp can surmount the legal hurdles of hiring people from anywhere, what’s Airbnb’s excuse?
  - zamadatix 3y ago
    I'm still not sure I follow what said hypocrisy is supposed to be. The article is about how they have the ability to hire anywhere, which is true regardless if they currently hire everywhere or not. Similarly the quotes about traveling for the summer are not invalidated, you don't change residency if you go to e.g. Alabama for 2 months so it's not a problem it's on the list. While I agree places that allow anywhere without question are even better "pssh, this guy is saying they did something well and it's just good not even the best possible way!" is not really hypocrisy. Maybe there is more I missed in the article though
    - ElFitz 3y ago
      > “Are you more productive having people physically in an office together and then constraining who you hire to a 30-mile or a 60-mile commuting radius to the office? Or by allowing your team to be able to hire people from anywhere?” he asked. From the linked "Airbnb CEO says the pandemic was the group’s ‘most productive’ two years ever, so now he’s making remote work permanent" [^1] (linked under "Airbnb made its “work from anywhere” policy permanent in April last year."): > Today, we’re announcing that Airbnb employees can live and work anywhere. [1]: https://fortune.com/2022/04/29/airbnb-ceo-remote-work-policy-most-productive/ https://fortune.com/2022/04/29/airbnb-ceo-remote-work-policy...
sokoloff 3y ago
> Airbnb, Inc. can hire employees in states where we have registered entities. Currently, employees cannot be located/live in: Alaska, Nebraska, North Dakota, Wisconsin, Alabama, Mississippi, and Delaware. It seems entirely reasonable to create state entities in a late-binding fashion, only after you find an employee or other reason requiring the creation of an entity and all the recurring paperwork/expense associated. (I am sightly surprised to see Delaware on the list given that I'm pretty sure they're originally registered as a Delaware corp.)
- ElFitz 3y ago
  Even though there is, today, half a dozen startups dedicated to solving just that (Deel comes to mind), yes, it definitely is reasonable. I just don’t appreciate people sanctimoniously dishing out lessons all while not applying what they, unprompted, decided to preach.
  - lamontcg 3y ago
    You are manufacturing your own outrage.
    - ElFitz 3y ago
      I honestly fail to see the outrage here. Mild annoyance, perhaps?
  - troll555 3y ago
    [dead]

by ElFitz 3y ago

yarg 3y ago

Time zones and expected levels of education are still significant factors. You generally don't want to be hiring people from regions with a substandard education system - and if they're in another time zone they can spend all night ruining your day before you even start work.

mkl 3y ago
It's the employee's education (& skill, experience, etc.) that matters, not the region's.
- yarg 3y ago
  It's also communication. You can communicate across distance, you cannot communicate across time. > It's the employee's education (& skill, experience, etc.) that matters, not the region's. The quality of educational systems is regionally defined, yes the other aspects are individual, and there's variation in what each individual can get out of the given educational context - but to claim that there's no degree of consistency in the calibre of candidates that come from given regions is ridiculous. There're always exceptions to generalisations - but you seldom want to pick up a single regional employee (except for the smallest of projects), because timely communication is always vital. If the individual is of such an extraordinary calibre that they become a vital hire, it often involves relocation.
viraptor 3y ago
> they can spend all night ruining your day before you even start work. Or they can be saving your service in emergency while you stay in bed. I'm not sure why you'd expect a different time zone to mean lower skills than yours.
- yarg 3y ago
  I'm not - I'm saying that when it's a factor it's a big problem. I've dealt with entire offices of people that were problematic - you could tell when they came in, because builds broke universally in the next half an hour. And that was right at the end of the day. From half four 'till half five I spent my time fucking about rolling back commits and sending emails around the world to tell people to sort their shit out. Yes, there're regions where that's not a problem - the guys in our Poland office had their shit together, but it's not universal.
  - viraptor 3y ago
    That sounds like a management issue. You've got people being counterproductive who were hired, given tasks/permissions at inappropriate skill level and are not being dealt with appropriately. That's really not related to time zone in any way. Sure, it impacts your situation temporarily, but you could experience the same thing from local people working night shift. Let's keep in mind where the responsibility for solving the situation long-term really is.
  - detaro 3y ago
    The only remote (to me) office I had to work with that I'd describe like that was in California. shrug
- bergie 3y ago
  Yep. When I was working with a very geographically distributed team, I loved being able to file a bug in the end of the workday, and have a fix ready for deployment by the time I opened my laptop next morning.
- ElFitz 3y ago
  It’s mostly a problem when the main purpose in hiring remotely is to aggressively save money.
  - viraptor 3y ago
    Yes, it's a problem with management rather than with the workers or the timezone.
ElFitz 3y ago
Then how about hiring people in Canada? Unless Canada somehow has worse education system than the US? Or, if it’s really only about education systems, Finland? Seriously, if it’s only about education, you can do better than the US.
- avbanks 3y ago
  I don't want to be rude but the United States has some of the best Universities in the world.
- 908B64B197 3y ago
  > Then how about hiring people in Canada They all do. But good luck getting a bargain. Canada is a smaller California (population-wise) stretched over 5 timezones. Something you have to keep in mind is that there are two parallel markets over there: SV caliber developers and the rest. The former won't have any issue getting a job in the US (takes maybe a week for a talented engineer to get one). Therefore, comp has to be priced appropriately. The later can't -and likely won't ever be able to- secure a US visa, mostly due to skills (there's a reason they immigrated to Canada, it's way easier and the quotas are close to 10x per capita compared to the US). Some companies leverage this and have floors of international devs they park in Canada for a fraction of their US counterpart through a subsidiary. > Finland The country is a little bit smaller, population-wise, than Minnesota. Great education system, but only produces so many engineers.

zamadatix 3y ago

There is a reasonable difference between anywhere and everywhere. Setting up shop in every state can be a big legal pain, especially if you don't expect many employees there or the particular state has more difficult rules to comply with. Doing so is in no way a requirement for what they are talking about, which is not hiring for having people come in to the office. On the flipside I've been able to convince companies to add a state before. I imagine it gets more difficult the larger the company is though, otherwise someone would have already added your state by that point.

ElFitz 3y ago
I would agree with that. Except the guy touts the merits of hiring from anywhere. He seems to think he’s somehow better than all the others he criticises (I, personally, favour remote work. Just not holier-than-thou hypocrites). All while his very own company hires from anywhere. Except outside the US. Except in one state out of ten. If hiring people "from anywhere" is so great, and if even Basecamp can surmount the legal hurdles of hiring people from anywhere, what’s Airbnb’s excuse?
- zamadatix 3y ago
  I'm still not sure I follow what said hypocrisy is supposed to be. The article is about how they have the ability to hire anywhere, which is true regardless if they currently hire everywhere or not. Similarly the quotes about traveling for the summer are not invalidated, you don't change residency if you go to e.g. Alabama for 2 months so it's not a problem it's on the list. While I agree places that allow anywhere without question are even better "pssh, this guy is saying they did something well and it's just good not even the best possible way!" is not really hypocrisy. Maybe there is more I missed in the article though
  - ElFitz 3y ago
    > “Are you more productive having people physically in an office together and then constraining who you hire to a 30-mile or a 60-mile commuting radius to the office? Or by allowing your team to be able to hire people from anywhere?” he asked. From the linked "Airbnb CEO says the pandemic was the group’s ‘most productive’ two years ever, so now he’s making remote work permanent" [^1] (linked under "Airbnb made its “work from anywhere” policy permanent in April last year."): > Today, we’re announcing that Airbnb employees can live and work anywhere. [1]: https://fortune.com/2022/04/29/airbnb-ceo-remote-work-policy-most-productive/ https://fortune.com/2022/04/29/airbnb-ceo-remote-work-policy...

sokoloff 3y ago

> Airbnb, Inc. can hire employees in states where we have registered entities. Currently, employees cannot be located/live in: Alaska, Nebraska, North Dakota, Wisconsin, Alabama, Mississippi, and Delaware. It seems entirely reasonable to create state entities in a late-binding fashion, only after you find an employee or other reason requiring the creation of an entity and all the recurring paperwork/expense associated. (I am sightly surprised to see Delaware on the list given that I'm pretty sure they're originally registered as a Delaware corp.)

ElFitz 3y ago
Even though there is, today, half a dozen startups dedicated to solving just that (Deel comes to mind), yes, it definitely is reasonable. I just don’t appreciate people sanctimoniously dishing out lessons all while not applying what they, unprompted, decided to preach.
- lamontcg 3y ago
  You are manufacturing your own outrage.
  - ElFitz 3y ago
    I honestly fail to see the outrage here. Mild annoyance, perhaps?
- troll555 3y ago
  [dead]