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You are making a categorical mistake. Things can be incredibly modular and depend on each other. In reality, the more modular something is the more dependable

You are making a categorical mistake. Things can be incredibly modular and depend on each other. In reality, the more modular something is the more dependable things are on each other. Tools before systemd also depended on each other. Systemd is plenty modular, its just managed in one project. Just like BSDs. So it is modular and depends the different parts depend on each other.

anfilt 3y ago
Compared to X, were your display server, window manager and compositor are generally distinct processes/components. This is not normally the case on wayland normally they are developed as one unit. Like consider gnome they decided to handle everything themselves. There are some wrappers/libraries that try to make developing some things separately at least easier such as wlroots. However, just considering wlroots this is not the only library probably (the most popular probably), but if you want to switch to using something else good luck. Also the wayland team definitely has opinions about certain things and that definitely rubs some people the wrong way, but more importantly this makes some things not as easily doable in wayland.
AnonymousPlanet 3y ago
The categorical mistake that underlies the issues here is much bigger actually. Linux took off because different people could work on parts of it independently. That is the case because the overall architecture is modular. You can rip out nearly any part and replace it with another one if it does not suit you. These parts were developed in different projects that could be agnositic towards other projects. If you increase dependencies on very specific parts of other projects, you stop being agnostic. You lose huge amounts of velocity and you lose potential developers because setting up your project and testing is now much more complicated. If the Linux world continues to make these mistakes, Linux development will not only slow down, we will see a lot of parts rotting away.
- fsh 3y ago
  This couldn't be further from the truth. Linux is a monolith, and famously breaks internal interfaces all the time.
  - AnonymousPlanet 3y ago
    I was talking about Linux as an OS platform, not just the kernel. The entire discussion here is about Wayland and its impact on the rest of userland, not the kernel. The kernel being a monolith is less of an issue, because there are enough companies that care about it. These companies can pour resources into the mentioned problems like setup and testing. Desktop Linux does not benefit from that because most companies only care about Linux as a server environment.

anfilt 3y ago

Compared to X, were your display server, window manager and compositor are generally distinct processes/components. This is not normally the case on wayland normally they are developed as one unit. Like consider gnome they decided to handle everything themselves. There are some wrappers/libraries that try to make developing some things separately at least easier such as wlroots. However, just considering wlroots this is not the only library probably (the most popular probably), but if you want to switch to using something else good luck. Also the wayland team definitely has opinions about certain things and that definitely rubs some people the wrong way, but more importantly this makes some things not as easily doable in wayland.

AnonymousPlanet 3y ago

The categorical mistake that underlies the issues here is much bigger actually. Linux took off because different people could work on parts of it independently. That is the case because the overall architecture is modular. You can rip out nearly any part and replace it with another one if it does not suit you. These parts were developed in different projects that could be agnositic towards other projects. If you increase dependencies on very specific parts of other projects, you stop being agnostic. You lose huge amounts of velocity and you lose potential developers because setting up your project and testing is now much more complicated. If the Linux world continues to make these mistakes, Linux development will not only slow down, we will see a lot of parts rotting away.

fsh 3y ago
This couldn't be further from the truth. Linux is a monolith, and famously breaks internal interfaces all the time.
- AnonymousPlanet 3y ago
  I was talking about Linux as an OS platform, not just the kernel. The entire discussion here is about Wayland and its impact on the rest of userland, not the kernel. The kernel being a monolith is less of an issue, because there are enough companies that care about it. These companies can pour resources into the mentioned problems like setup and testing. Desktop Linux does not benefit from that because most companies only care about Linux as a server environment.