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> I don't really know what does. My desktop not working, or apps being blurred, or slower, or my mouse cursor stuttering, or screen sharing not working, or Jav

> I don't really know what does. My desktop not working, or apps being blurred, or slower, or my mouse cursor stuttering, or screen sharing not working, or Java apps not getting the hidpi settings. That’s what drives me away from Wayland, and all of those happened to me. I don’t think anybody is against Wayland “just because”. When it matures and app support is better, we’ll switch.

kaba0 3y ago
Apps being blurred are old x apps running in xwayland compat mode, they are not slower at all (full-screen games can circumvent the compositor for a long time now), and the rest are not typical at all.
- alanfranz 3y ago
  I don’t care about what’s typical, I care about my own workflow. What is the “typical” linux desktop workflow, btw? It’s probably an OS used by a bunch of geeks, everybody’s got his own quirks.
mort96 3y ago
I understand that it might not work for you. That's unfortunate. But you shouldn't expect Xorg to keep working for you either. The time where Xorg is a well-maintained project is past us. That's the point.
- okasaki 3y ago
  The only thing that matters is what works better, and that's Xorg.
  - ezst 3y ago
    Is it, though? Wayland has solved a bunch of problems that I had become used to under Xorg to the point of not noticing anymore, and even though I bumped into new issues on Wayland at first (and tbh there are still few open out there), going back to Xorg nowadays feels like going backwards.
    - okasaki 3y ago
      Yeah, Xorg is better. It's faster, more stable, uses less power, and has more features, and more environments. 14 years later there's still no rational reason to run Wayland, and I doubt there ever will be.
      - ezst 3y ago
        I mean, it's funny that you say so, because with the exception of "more environments", I've observed the exact opposite :) I'm a simple user with simple needs, though apparently that's already pushing the limits of what Xorg can deliver: I have a high-DPI laptop scaled 140%, and a secondary high-res/average-DPI display at 100%. Mixing scaling factors has never worked well under Xorg (rendering glitches with ghost lines, applications like drop down terminals not knowing the dimensions of their viewport when opened on one screen and then or the other). And I'm not even getting into the better handling of discrete GPUs or the much smoother scrolling/animations that give it a better polish. Xorg totally made sense in the context in which it was invented (in the long forgotten era of server-side rendering), but with applications rendering their own widgets and passing pixmaps to the compositor, Wayland is mostly about cutting the middleman and breaking-off with the obsolete/unmaintained/insecure bits. If you grab a distro with the latest gnome/kde, you should be at a point where Wayland really is only upsides.
      - kaba0 3y ago
        Nope, yes as of now, no wayland is only the things needed instead of being a useless middleman between processes and compositors, has more “things” instead, what environments?
- alanfranz 3y ago
  I do not expect anything from any OSS software I don’t pay for, and for sure I do not expect Asahi devs to work on Xorg. Their stance is clear. Totally fine for me. I’m periodically re-evaluating Wayland for my own needs, and so far I chose Xorg every time. I need to do work on my ws, so I need to prioritize stableness to features. I don’t care about fancy features and I’d be ok with KDE 3.5. Ironically, what should work way better on wayland rather than xorg (hidpi, especially with fractional settings) still works better on xorg for me.
- AnonymousPlanet 3y ago
  I hope people understand that if xorg stops working before Wayland is ready to be a real replacement, Linux is dead.
  - sys_64738 3y ago
    I doubt that given how widely used on servers it is.
  - kaba0 3y ago
    Linux desktop never even was alive to begin with.
  - charcircuit 3y ago
    Android is getting along just fine without xorg.
    - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
      Desktop Linux was clearly inferred from the context.
- zbuf 3y ago
  > The time where Xorg is a well-maintained project is past us. That's the point. This statement continues to sound like its trying to become self-fulfilling. Xorg releases still happen (I'm not going to get into a debate about what is "well" maintained) As many people move to Wayland those interested in X long-term should be given the space to do so, and statements like this set out to prevent it. It's even a case of "protest too much" -- saying it over and over means that probably it isn't true.
  - kaba0 3y ago
    Xorg releases were done almost exclusively by Red Hat, which just recently announced that they won’t support X for their next version. So.. no, it is objectively not maintained.
  - mort96 3y ago
    Look at the developers who have historically been working on Xorg. Look at the organizations and projects which have historically been working on Xorg. Look at what they're working on now. Look at what Red Hat and GNOME and KDE are up to. They're not working on Xorg, except for parts relevant for XWayland. The statement "Xorg isn't well-maintained anymore" isn't an attempt at a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's a statement of fact. The people and companies and organizations who used to do the work on X11 are now working on Wayland. The same people and groups are doing the same kind of work, just on a different protocol.

kaba0 3y ago

Apps being blurred are old x apps running in xwayland compat mode, they are not slower at all (full-screen games can circumvent the compositor for a long time now), and the rest are not typical at all.

alanfranz 3y ago
I don’t care about what’s typical, I care about my own workflow. What is the “typical” linux desktop workflow, btw? It’s probably an OS used by a bunch of geeks, everybody’s got his own quirks.

mort96 3y ago

I understand that it might not work for you. That's unfortunate. But you shouldn't expect Xorg to keep working for you either. The time where Xorg is a well-maintained project is past us. That's the point.

okasaki 3y ago
The only thing that matters is what works better, and that's Xorg.
- ezst 3y ago
  Is it, though? Wayland has solved a bunch of problems that I had become used to under Xorg to the point of not noticing anymore, and even though I bumped into new issues on Wayland at first (and tbh there are still few open out there), going back to Xorg nowadays feels like going backwards.
  - okasaki 3y ago
    Yeah, Xorg is better. It's faster, more stable, uses less power, and has more features, and more environments. 14 years later there's still no rational reason to run Wayland, and I doubt there ever will be.
    - ezst 3y ago
      I mean, it's funny that you say so, because with the exception of "more environments", I've observed the exact opposite :) I'm a simple user with simple needs, though apparently that's already pushing the limits of what Xorg can deliver: I have a high-DPI laptop scaled 140%, and a secondary high-res/average-DPI display at 100%. Mixing scaling factors has never worked well under Xorg (rendering glitches with ghost lines, applications like drop down terminals not knowing the dimensions of their viewport when opened on one screen and then or the other). And I'm not even getting into the better handling of discrete GPUs or the much smoother scrolling/animations that give it a better polish. Xorg totally made sense in the context in which it was invented (in the long forgotten era of server-side rendering), but with applications rendering their own widgets and passing pixmaps to the compositor, Wayland is mostly about cutting the middleman and breaking-off with the obsolete/unmaintained/insecure bits. If you grab a distro with the latest gnome/kde, you should be at a point where Wayland really is only upsides.
    - kaba0 3y ago
      Nope, yes as of now, no wayland is only the things needed instead of being a useless middleman between processes and compositors, has more “things” instead, what environments?
alanfranz 3y ago
I do not expect anything from any OSS software I don’t pay for, and for sure I do not expect Asahi devs to work on Xorg. Their stance is clear. Totally fine for me. I’m periodically re-evaluating Wayland for my own needs, and so far I chose Xorg every time. I need to do work on my ws, so I need to prioritize stableness to features. I don’t care about fancy features and I’d be ok with KDE 3.5. Ironically, what should work way better on wayland rather than xorg (hidpi, especially with fractional settings) still works better on xorg for me.
AnonymousPlanet 3y ago
I hope people understand that if xorg stops working before Wayland is ready to be a real replacement, Linux is dead.
- sys_64738 3y ago
  I doubt that given how widely used on servers it is.
- kaba0 3y ago
  Linux desktop never even was alive to begin with.
- charcircuit 3y ago
  Android is getting along just fine without xorg.
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    Desktop Linux was clearly inferred from the context.
zbuf 3y ago
> The time where Xorg is a well-maintained project is past us. That's the point. This statement continues to sound like its trying to become self-fulfilling. Xorg releases still happen (I'm not going to get into a debate about what is "well" maintained) As many people move to Wayland those interested in X long-term should be given the space to do so, and statements like this set out to prevent it. It's even a case of "protest too much" -- saying it over and over means that probably it isn't true.
- kaba0 3y ago
  Xorg releases were done almost exclusively by Red Hat, which just recently announced that they won’t support X for their next version. So.. no, it is objectively not maintained.
- mort96 3y ago
  Look at the developers who have historically been working on Xorg. Look at the organizations and projects which have historically been working on Xorg. Look at what they're working on now. Look at what Red Hat and GNOME and KDE are up to. They're not working on Xorg, except for parts relevant for XWayland. The statement "Xorg isn't well-maintained anymore" isn't an attempt at a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's a statement of fact. The people and companies and organizations who used to do the work on X11 are now working on Wayland. The same people and groups are doing the same kind of work, just on a different protocol.