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What does hn think about determinism? Lately I've gravitated towards the idea that everything is a direct result of everything that came before it, down to the

What does hn think about determinism? Lately I've gravitated towards the idea that everything is a direct result of everything that came before it, down to the arrangement of atoms at a particular time and place, the forces on molecules in our own galaxy or others, etc. It's bleak in a way, but at the same time it can be comforting in the sense that everything is exactly the only way that it could be. You can not be anyone other than who you are. You are exactly as time and space prepositioned you to be.

NhanH 3y ago
The arrangement of atom is not deterministic though. At atom level or smaller, we already have to use probabilistic description in physics (and as far as we know, the probabilistic description is probably not because of our inability to measure, but some inherent property of the universe), so I'm not sure if the argument would hold.
- MattRix 3y ago
  Yes it’s not predictable but not necessarily non-deterministic.
deleted 3y ago
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anonymouskimmer 3y ago
Pretty much what I think about sanity. Whether or not you are sane or insane, you pretty much have to function as though you are sane.
chris-orgmenta 3y ago
It feels to me like 1) the current probability of determinism / no free will is 'very highly probable.' 2) the probability of determinism being the case rises every time our knowledge about the universe increases 3) The statements above are gaining more and more consensus among scientists. And I am definitely agnostic on the q, but weighted on the side of determinism. But - Surely the quantum world utterly undermines the above until we know more about it. Perhaps we could be harnessing free will somehow, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reducti...
smokel 3y ago
I think it's important to note a difference in context when reasoning about determinism. When reasoning about individual atoms, the universe may well be deterministic, but the complexity of a human organism is so large (in comparison to the level of understanding it exhibits), that something very interesting may emerge, which you can thoroughly enjoy. Even if freedom of choice is a big illusion, it is still a really big illusion, and you are more than likely totally unable to predict most of your life. Assuming you are a bit scared of determinism, what would it mean practically? What would it help you with? Possibly not much. And how would it limit you? If you'd imply that life then has no meaning, and if that feels uncomfortable, I'd suggest to change your definition of "meaning".
layer8 3y ago
Maybe read up on Many-Worlds, which changes the equation a bit. Your last paragraph mostly still holds, except that "you" are not a single worldline, but a tree (or directed graph) of worldlines, where each point only experiences the world they're on. For the "you" of this present world (where you're reading this), things could have been different, in the sense that they are different in the other worlds. But, the present world with the present you would have existed in any case (same as all the other worlds), so here you are (as are all the other "yous" in the other worlds). Another way to interpret this is that all logically possible worlds truly exist, and you're (necessarily) experiencing an arbitrary one of those.

NhanH 3y ago

The arrangement of atom is not deterministic though. At atom level or smaller, we already have to use probabilistic description in physics (and as far as we know, the probabilistic description is probably not because of our inability to measure, but some inherent property of the universe), so I'm not sure if the argument would hold.

MattRix 3y ago
Yes it’s not predictable but not necessarily non-deterministic.

deleted 3y ago

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anonymouskimmer 3y ago

Pretty much what I think about sanity. Whether or not you are sane or insane, you pretty much have to function as though you are sane.

chris-orgmenta 3y ago

It feels to me like 1) the current probability of determinism / no free will is 'very highly probable.' 2) the probability of determinism being the case rises every time our knowledge about the universe increases 3) The statements above are gaining more and more consensus among scientists. And I am definitely agnostic on the q, but weighted on the side of determinism. But - Surely the quantum world utterly undermines the above until we know more about it. Perhaps we could be harnessing free will somehow, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reducti...

smokel 3y ago

I think it's important to note a difference in context when reasoning about determinism. When reasoning about individual atoms, the universe may well be deterministic, but the complexity of a human organism is so large (in comparison to the level of understanding it exhibits), that something very interesting may emerge, which you can thoroughly enjoy. Even if freedom of choice is a big illusion, it is still a really big illusion, and you are more than likely totally unable to predict most of your life. Assuming you are a bit scared of determinism, what would it mean practically? What would it help you with? Possibly not much. And how would it limit you? If you'd imply that life then has no meaning, and if that feels uncomfortable, I'd suggest to change your definition of "meaning".

layer8 3y ago

Maybe read up on Many-Worlds, which changes the equation a bit. Your last paragraph mostly still holds, except that "you" are not a single worldline, but a tree (or directed graph) of worldlines, where each point only experiences the world they're on. For the "you" of this present world (where you're reading this), things could have been different, in the sense that they are different in the other worlds. But, the present world with the present you would have existed in any case (same as all the other worlds), so here you are (as are all the other "yous" in the other worlds). Another way to interpret this is that all logically possible worlds truly exist, and you're (necessarily) experiencing an arbitrary one of those.