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I remember reading this book and there were 3 paragraphs of philosophical value in the whole book. This is one of those three paragraphs. I found the book very

I remember reading this book and there were 3 paragraphs of philosophical value in the whole book. This is one of those three paragraphs. I found the book very disappointing. "The meaning of life is to live every moment as if it had meaning?" That is a thesis which felt foreign and useless. I felt no closer to meaning after reading that book. It was in a self help psychology book that I thought communicated the core idea of meaning and purpose the best: Meaning == Feeling The author (I believe of: running on empty) made the statement that a struggle to find purpose is the same thing as a struggle to feel and that life's purpose is to feel. Feelings are the fuel for our lives. So those with blunted emotions obviously feel no sense of purpose because the purpose of life is to feel emotions. Struggling with a lack of meaning is the same thing as struggling to feel. If you knew what would make you feel, it would obviously be meaningful to interact with that. Bringing this idea back to Frankl, his work becomes much more accessible: The purpose of life is to live every moment with feeling. Finding meaning means seeing what makes you feel.

qingcharles 3y ago
I really enjoyed reading this book whilst I was in jail. It made me feel a whole lot better about my situation.
papandada 3y ago
I've been thinking about this comment for a few days now, just wanted to say thank you.
manmal 3y ago
“The meaning of life is to live every moment as if it had meaning” sounds wise and livable to me. > a struggle to find purpose is the same thing as a struggle to feel I think feeling is a means to an end, and that there are deeper reasons for a lack of purpose: - Loss (eg after death of loved ones, or of abilities) - Change (eg of the shape of a relationship) that is hard to adapt to - Inability to end current adversity (eg emotional pain that can’t be stopped due to circumstances) For those, people find “workarounds” that numb their feelings (drugs, workaholism, constant distractions etc) so they don’t have to feel the emotional pain (which they currently have no real fix for) all the time. The search for a purpose is IMO a search for anything that resolves the emotional pain. As soon as the pain is gone, “feeling” is safe again and no longer has to be suppressed.
- hayst4ck 3y ago
  I read Frankl's book as a depressed person who saw lack of meaning as the root of my problems, namely of anhedonia (used casually, not medically). Frankl's book is written for normal functional people. What wasn't clear is that the state of anhedonia is not a result of lack of meaning, anhedonia is lack of meaning. I was reading it hoping for an algorithm to find any meaning at all. For you "meaning" seems to mean something. For me "meaning" was a null pointer exception. The variable name "meaning" is understood in a general sense, but when you try to manipulate the idea or collide it with other ideas, everything breaks down. If you can't de-reference "meaning" then Frankl's work is quite opaque since "meaning" is primarily a feeling and most people's understanding of it is intuitive rather than prescriptive. Frankl is never able to jump out of the intuitive understanding of meaning, and so for someone who the idea of "meaning" is not intuitive his work was quite inaccessible. Once you understand that meaning is feeling, then you can think about meaning in a more prescriptive sense and his work starts to make more sense. I would probably have a wildly different experiencing reading it now than when I originally read it. I had a childhood where my feelings did not matter very much. My dad was a narcissist and my mom was too busy bread-winning. This resulted in suppression of emotions since they had very little value. As an adult the lessons learned as a child are carried through. Childhood emotional neglect is the state of not learning how to have purpose because you don't matter. The depression stage of grief seems closer to the state of having lost meaning. I guess for a summarized critique of Frankl, it's that much like the article posted is saying, meaning is not a linear monolothic idea. If you frame the conversation around meaning as Frankl's book does, that's a very different conversation than one framed around emotional regulation. The emotional regulation conversation helps find meaning, but the meaning conversation is unlikely to help a person with emotional regulation.
  - skyung421 3y ago
    I agree with you on that there is no clear definition or discussion about "meaning" itself. But I don't agree with the idea that meaning == feeling. It sounds to me that if I apply that definition to how I live my life it'd only leads to a hedonistic one that only pursues momentary satisfaction of my feelings.
marcus_holmes 3y ago
There are lots of people who are unable to clearly feel emotion (Alexythemia). Are these people doomed to wander without purpose or meaning? Obviously not. Emotions are fleeting, ephemeral, things that should definitely not be used to drive our lives. You can have 10 different, conflicting, feelings in 5 minutes (and for some of us this is a common occurrence). Meditation allowed me to get past my random thoughts and emotions and achieve some semblance of coherence to my inner life. Detaching from my emotions has done more for me achieving any meaning in my life than following them. Defining my values and using them to guide my life has created meaning for me. YMMV
- hayst4ck 3y ago
  > Obviously not. This is not obvious to me at all. I would expect trouble clearly feeling emotion to directly lead to struggle with meaning. I am pretty sure this psychologist would agree: https://drjonicewebb.com/do-you-have-alexithymia/ https://drjonicewebb.com/do-you-have-alexithymia/ Her book running on empty quite literally states that alexythemia is damaging to a feeling of purpose. She states alexythemia directly contributes to (1) emptiness and numbness, (2) suffering in silence, (3) questioning the meaning and value of your own life, and (4) escape fantasies.
  - Mezzie 3y ago
    I had medication induced alexithymia and since I've experienced both sides of it, I would add my voice to saying that having alexithymia causes major problems in finding purpose in life. Making any kind of decision was terrible; I couldn't decide what jobs to pursue, couldn't pick what hobbies to do, etc. I felt like crap physically because I couldn't feel any desire for food or other sustenance. I also ended up with a drug problem because I tried drugs at this time and it was the only way I could feel anything and make choices.
    - marcus_holmes 3y ago
      Interesting. I went through clinical depression and solved that partly through Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) [0], which has "The Happiness Trap" as its core text. The core idea of this (as you'd expect from the title) is that pursuing happiness as a goal is pointless and futile. ACT emphasises values over feelings as the core of meaning, and distancing oneself from one's feelings as a way to deal with them. There's considerable overlap with stoicism, which also de-emphasises feelings as a source of meaning (or anything). Both of these treat emotions as things to be treated carefully, as a probable source of misery and dis-ease, and not something to be embraced as one's core path to meaning. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceptance_and_commitment_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceptance_and_commitment_ther...
hutzlibu 3y ago
"Finding meaning means seeing what makes you feel." What about late stage cancer patients. They do feel pain. Does this mean, they find it meaningful to suffer till they die? Or a mother that lost her only child, feeling now only misery? So I would rephrase that to: Finding meaning means doing what feels right. So yes, in your specific case it meant, allowing yourself to feel again at all, to understand what you want to do. I hope you manage.

qingcharles 3y ago

I really enjoyed reading this book whilst I was in jail. It made me feel a whole lot better about my situation.

papandada 3y ago

I've been thinking about this comment for a few days now, just wanted to say thank you.

manmal 3y ago

“The meaning of life is to live every moment as if it had meaning” sounds wise and livable to me. > a struggle to find purpose is the same thing as a struggle to feel I think feeling is a means to an end, and that there are deeper reasons for a lack of purpose: - Loss (eg after death of loved ones, or of abilities) - Change (eg of the shape of a relationship) that is hard to adapt to - Inability to end current adversity (eg emotional pain that can’t be stopped due to circumstances) For those, people find “workarounds” that numb their feelings (drugs, workaholism, constant distractions etc) so they don’t have to feel the emotional pain (which they currently have no real fix for) all the time. The search for a purpose is IMO a search for anything that resolves the emotional pain. As soon as the pain is gone, “feeling” is safe again and no longer has to be suppressed.

hayst4ck 3y ago
I read Frankl's book as a depressed person who saw lack of meaning as the root of my problems, namely of anhedonia (used casually, not medically). Frankl's book is written for normal functional people. What wasn't clear is that the state of anhedonia is not a result of lack of meaning, anhedonia is lack of meaning. I was reading it hoping for an algorithm to find any meaning at all. For you "meaning" seems to mean something. For me "meaning" was a null pointer exception. The variable name "meaning" is understood in a general sense, but when you try to manipulate the idea or collide it with other ideas, everything breaks down. If you can't de-reference "meaning" then Frankl's work is quite opaque since "meaning" is primarily a feeling and most people's understanding of it is intuitive rather than prescriptive. Frankl is never able to jump out of the intuitive understanding of meaning, and so for someone who the idea of "meaning" is not intuitive his work was quite inaccessible. Once you understand that meaning is feeling, then you can think about meaning in a more prescriptive sense and his work starts to make more sense. I would probably have a wildly different experiencing reading it now than when I originally read it. I had a childhood where my feelings did not matter very much. My dad was a narcissist and my mom was too busy bread-winning. This resulted in suppression of emotions since they had very little value. As an adult the lessons learned as a child are carried through. Childhood emotional neglect is the state of not learning how to have purpose because you don't matter. The depression stage of grief seems closer to the state of having lost meaning. I guess for a summarized critique of Frankl, it's that much like the article posted is saying, meaning is not a linear monolothic idea. If you frame the conversation around meaning as Frankl's book does, that's a very different conversation than one framed around emotional regulation. The emotional regulation conversation helps find meaning, but the meaning conversation is unlikely to help a person with emotional regulation.
- skyung421 3y ago
  I agree with you on that there is no clear definition or discussion about "meaning" itself. But I don't agree with the idea that meaning == feeling. It sounds to me that if I apply that definition to how I live my life it'd only leads to a hedonistic one that only pursues momentary satisfaction of my feelings.

marcus_holmes 3y ago

There are lots of people who are unable to clearly feel emotion (Alexythemia). Are these people doomed to wander without purpose or meaning? Obviously not. Emotions are fleeting, ephemeral, things that should definitely not be used to drive our lives. You can have 10 different, conflicting, feelings in 5 minutes (and for some of us this is a common occurrence). Meditation allowed me to get past my random thoughts and emotions and achieve some semblance of coherence to my inner life. Detaching from my emotions has done more for me achieving any meaning in my life than following them. Defining my values and using them to guide my life has created meaning for me. YMMV

hayst4ck 3y ago
> Obviously not. This is not obvious to me at all. I would expect trouble clearly feeling emotion to directly lead to struggle with meaning. I am pretty sure this psychologist would agree: https://drjonicewebb.com/do-you-have-alexithymia/ https://drjonicewebb.com/do-you-have-alexithymia/ Her book running on empty quite literally states that alexythemia is damaging to a feeling of purpose. She states alexythemia directly contributes to (1) emptiness and numbness, (2) suffering in silence, (3) questioning the meaning and value of your own life, and (4) escape fantasies.
- Mezzie 3y ago
  I had medication induced alexithymia and since I've experienced both sides of it, I would add my voice to saying that having alexithymia causes major problems in finding purpose in life. Making any kind of decision was terrible; I couldn't decide what jobs to pursue, couldn't pick what hobbies to do, etc. I felt like crap physically because I couldn't feel any desire for food or other sustenance. I also ended up with a drug problem because I tried drugs at this time and it was the only way I could feel anything and make choices.
  - marcus_holmes 3y ago
    Interesting. I went through clinical depression and solved that partly through Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) [0], which has "The Happiness Trap" as its core text. The core idea of this (as you'd expect from the title) is that pursuing happiness as a goal is pointless and futile. ACT emphasises values over feelings as the core of meaning, and distancing oneself from one's feelings as a way to deal with them. There's considerable overlap with stoicism, which also de-emphasises feelings as a source of meaning (or anything). Both of these treat emotions as things to be treated carefully, as a probable source of misery and dis-ease, and not something to be embraced as one's core path to meaning. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceptance_and_commitment_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceptance_and_commitment_ther...

hutzlibu 3y ago

"Finding meaning means seeing what makes you feel." What about late stage cancer patients. They do feel pain. Does this mean, they find it meaningful to suffer till they die? Or a mother that lost her only child, feeling now only misery? So I would rephrase that to: Finding meaning means doing what feels right. So yes, in your specific case it meant, allowing yourself to feel again at all, to understand what you want to do. I hope you manage.