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Funnily enough the way he describes musical instruction is actually a good idea in my opinion. I think it’s weird that we don’t teach people to read music effec

by dools 3y ago

Funnily enough the way he describes musical instruction is actually a good idea in my opinion. I think it’s weird that we don’t teach people to read music effectively as a regular part of musical instruction. Playing music is boring and mundane unless you’re good at it and becoming good first involves imitation. The most effective way at to imitate is to be able to read. I know everyone says there are loads of amazing guitarists who can’t read music but there are zero amazing guitarists who didn’t start by imitating someone else. Why not give people the best way to imitate as a first step? Music and maths are very similar in that they are as much a skill as they are an art form. You have to practise both regularly, you can’t cram for maths on the night before an exam and you can’t cram the night before a music recital. I think music education should be more like mathematics but I also think that both should bring “big ideas” and outcomes into play sooner, with less emphasis on theory and more emphasis on practical implementation. In maths that means project based learning in music it means focusing on reading and practise rather than theory.

cammikebrown 3y ago
Reading music is absolutely something that most students of music learn. For stuff like guitar, bass, and drums, there’s tablature instead but for piano you’re definitely gonna learn to read sheet music first thing.
- anonymouskimmer 3y ago
  Most. When I was taught piano as a young kid (I stopped after some months or a year) I was taught to start learning how to read sheet music through numbers. Which was a mistake as numbers are important to my brain (OCD counting). For others (I have an anecdote but it's not mine so I won't share it), only if they can afford private lessons. Which has an impact on opportunities in high school, and consequently on college, if one goes to college. Raw talent only gets you so far if sight reading is expected.
nohaydeprobleme 3y ago
You made an interesting observation, but in my personal experience, educators can help students by striking a balance between rigorous fundamentals and getting to improper-but-enjoyable interactions with a new skill, when teaching a new subject—if the student isn't already strongly self-motivated. My personal experience is with language learning, which might be comparable to focusing on sheet music and scales. When learning languages like Mandarin, Japanese, or Arabic, you can spend a lot of time focusing on fundamentals before getting started with how to say basic useful phrases (e.g. proper tones for Mandarin, and the alphabet system for Japanese and Arabic). I spent more than a month learning the mundane fundamentals of tones in Mandarin before learning basic useful phrases. I was personally strongly convinced this was useful and was prepared for the mundanity, but I could easily see myself or other people quitting after spending several weeks without knowing more than a few phrases. With Arabic, too, I spent weeks with one teacher just focusing on the alphabet and how the letter shapes transform in certain letter combinations, without learning more than very basic phrases—which I appreciated, as the strong basis paid off down the line. Another teacher, however, spent about two-thirds of the time on phrases with romanization with English letters, and about a third of the time on the alphabet. ~~ For learners—especially adult students—already convinced about learning a subject, a mundane approach is acceptable because they already have the proper motivation to learn. But especially for younger students, perhaps it's okay to spend a good amount of time having fun learning the subject—but not in a way that's necessarily optimized for time. For adolescents learning musical instruction, a better approach might be a split between theory and learning to play a simple but nice song without knowing how to read notes. But for already strongly-motivated students and/or adults, a few weeks or even months on more mundane can be even preferable, especially if the student has volunteered to spend their time working through the mundanity.
bigDinosaur 3y ago
I don't know anyone who wasn't taught how to read music who actually went through an official music program. It was close to the very first thing I was ever taught when learning an instrument. I think the point still stands though that musical notation isn't the point of music - nobody gets into music because of the notation so if you focus on it too much you'll just ruin something for many people that should ultimately just be about enjoyment. I'd also contend that reading music just isn't difficult. Interpretation and actual execution are the hard parts.
- bombolo 3y ago
  Italian. They taught us to read music in elementary school. Of course, like for regular reading, you don't start off reading the most complicated thing available, but something that is at a child's level.
boerseth 3y ago
An important part of designing a curriculum that seems often overlooked is how likely it is that a student will enjoy it, and consequently whether they will even go through with it. Sure, we could speculate at what the optimal training regime would be to force upon a child, but schools unfortunately are not allowed to do that. Too often, good teachers find themselves working as hype-men rather than educators. I've often said that if a student doesn't want to learn a subject, you basically can't teach them anything about it. And on the flip side, if a student really wants to learn something, you almost can't stop them.
analog31 3y ago
I'm a jazz musician, though I started on classical music. Reading was central to how I was taught to play. Today, I use my reading chops on the bandstand, though I'm also good at picking things up by ear. Most classical students learn very little theory unless they study music in college, which I didn't. I would say that learning by ear is the other best way to imitate. One problem with traditional teaching is that it results in a great deal of attrition. In fact, most students give up in frustration. Also, if they choose to take up music on their own, it tends to be at an age where they've had their fill of school, and any kind of formal training is a turn-off. Genres such as folk and rock, and instruments such as the guitar and electric bass, lend themselves to informal self-training and learning material by ear. Also, if reading isn't used, then writing isn't used. There's a huge written literature for classical music, but virtually none for contemporary popular music. There's a primitive tabulature system, but it doesn't convey much information beyond fingerings.

by dools 3y ago

cammikebrown 3y ago

Reading music is absolutely something that most students of music learn. For stuff like guitar, bass, and drums, there’s tablature instead but for piano you’re definitely gonna learn to read sheet music first thing.

anonymouskimmer 3y ago
Most. When I was taught piano as a young kid (I stopped after some months or a year) I was taught to start learning how to read sheet music through numbers. Which was a mistake as numbers are important to my brain (OCD counting). For others (I have an anecdote but it's not mine so I won't share it), only if they can afford private lessons. Which has an impact on opportunities in high school, and consequently on college, if one goes to college. Raw talent only gets you so far if sight reading is expected.

nohaydeprobleme 3y ago

You made an interesting observation, but in my personal experience, educators can help students by striking a balance between rigorous fundamentals and getting to improper-but-enjoyable interactions with a new skill, when teaching a new subject—if the student isn't already strongly self-motivated. My personal experience is with language learning, which might be comparable to focusing on sheet music and scales. When learning languages like Mandarin, Japanese, or Arabic, you can spend a lot of time focusing on fundamentals before getting started with how to say basic useful phrases (e.g. proper tones for Mandarin, and the alphabet system for Japanese and Arabic). I spent more than a month learning the mundane fundamentals of tones in Mandarin before learning basic useful phrases. I was personally strongly convinced this was useful and was prepared for the mundanity, but I could easily see myself or other people quitting after spending several weeks without knowing more than a few phrases. With Arabic, too, I spent weeks with one teacher just focusing on the alphabet and how the letter shapes transform in certain letter combinations, without learning more than very basic phrases—which I appreciated, as the strong basis paid off down the line. Another teacher, however, spent about two-thirds of the time on phrases with romanization with English letters, and about a third of the time on the alphabet. ~~ For learners—especially adult students—already convinced about learning a subject, a mundane approach is acceptable because they already have the proper motivation to learn. But especially for younger students, perhaps it's okay to spend a good amount of time having fun learning the subject—but not in a way that's necessarily optimized for time. For adolescents learning musical instruction, a better approach might be a split between theory and learning to play a simple but nice song without knowing how to read notes. But for already strongly-motivated students and/or adults, a few weeks or even months on more mundane can be even preferable, especially if the student has volunteered to spend their time working through the mundanity.

bigDinosaur 3y ago

I don't know anyone who wasn't taught how to read music who actually went through an official music program. It was close to the very first thing I was ever taught when learning an instrument. I think the point still stands though that musical notation isn't the point of music - nobody gets into music because of the notation so if you focus on it too much you'll just ruin something for many people that should ultimately just be about enjoyment. I'd also contend that reading music just isn't difficult. Interpretation and actual execution are the hard parts.

bombolo 3y ago
Italian. They taught us to read music in elementary school. Of course, like for regular reading, you don't start off reading the most complicated thing available, but something that is at a child's level.

boerseth 3y ago

An important part of designing a curriculum that seems often overlooked is how likely it is that a student will enjoy it, and consequently whether they will even go through with it. Sure, we could speculate at what the optimal training regime would be to force upon a child, but schools unfortunately are not allowed to do that. Too often, good teachers find themselves working as hype-men rather than educators. I've often said that if a student doesn't want to learn a subject, you basically can't teach them anything about it. And on the flip side, if a student really wants to learn something, you almost can't stop them.

analog31 3y ago

I'm a jazz musician, though I started on classical music. Reading was central to how I was taught to play. Today, I use my reading chops on the bandstand, though I'm also good at picking things up by ear. Most classical students learn very little theory unless they study music in college, which I didn't. I would say that learning by ear is the other best way to imitate. One problem with traditional teaching is that it results in a great deal of attrition. In fact, most students give up in frustration. Also, if they choose to take up music on their own, it tends to be at an age where they've had their fill of school, and any kind of formal training is a turn-off. Genres such as folk and rock, and instruments such as the guitar and electric bass, lend themselves to informal self-training and learning material by ear. Also, if reading isn't used, then writing isn't used. There's a huge written literature for classical music, but virtually none for contemporary popular music. There's a primitive tabulature system, but it doesn't convey much information beyond fingerings.