4 ms·

I am a climate doomer. Not being one means believing our institutions, politicians and corporations are a force for good. I would not trust anyone born after t

by sph 4y ago

I am a climate doomer. Not being one means believing our institutions, politicians and corporations are a force for good. I would not trust anyone born after the 1970s that believes that's the case, because they're either frighteningly naive, borne from privilege or just lying to themselves. Oil companies with continue lobbying, politicians will continue to promise absolute nonsensical green dreams to get voted in, people will continue to vote the next guy in because he's gonna do something about it, and rinse and fucking repeat. In fact, the same applies to any major issue affecting the Western world. I am sure I am the minority and the lunatic here, but I do not trust anyone that does not see modern politics (which includes corporate capitalism and all that circus) as a net negative for humanity as a whole. We need action, yesterday, yet all we can do is tell Joe Average their steak is causing climate change, and Unilever will save us with their plant-based burger, with ingredients shipped from overseas because it's cheaper. But sure, the next party is definitely gonna do something about climate change. "It's just a matter of setting the right economic incentives," I can hear, over muffled laughter. (I am aware I sound like a loon in this comment, but I am from the austerity and economic crisis generation, I have no belief whatsoever in our institutions.)

rolenthedeep 4y ago
I think it's a pretty pragmatic view. The political system has no interest or even real incentive to fix climate change. Money has corrupted our governments too deeply to alter course in time. There's nothing that you, I, or any individual can do to affect our current trajectory. Not at any scale that actually matters. The only answer is to stop producing fossil fuels right now full stop, no conditions, no "phasing out". And that is simply not feasible because of money. Because we've spent the last half a century ignoring the problem. What do we do? No amount of voting or recycling or buying new cars is going to make any change. It hasn't for 20 years. By the time our society gets its collective head out of its ass enough to vote for political change, we'll already be deep into global famine. I predict two general scenarios: 1. Status quo. Nothing changes, world governments will attempt a massive last ditch effort far, far too late to make a difference. A huge portion of all species die. From there pick your favorite post-apocalyptic movie. 2. The people wisen up and overthrow their governments, string up oil execs, and force decarbonization at any cost. We are currently, right now, TODAY at the stage where we must decarbonize at any cost. Literally no cost is too high. If we shut down oil today, it will be hugely disruptive and destructive to global society. A lot of people will die and many, many more will suffer. This will go on for decades most likely. But the alternative is most likely an extinction level event. Global famine and plague, entire species going extinct, loss of coastlines, entire ecosystems collapsing en masse. Fundamentally, I don't think human psychology at scale can handle that. I expect that nothing barring miracle technology is going to save us, and in our current socioeconomic system, that might be even worse than nothing. So yeah, I think we're doomed. We let capitalism go on for too long and it's too late to change direction. Those with power have systematically taken it from the rest of us so that the people with the incentive to survive longer than their career don't have the power to. The rest have the power to build nuclear bunkers under a mountain, or a rocket to Mars. All because some men wanted to see a number go up. Maybe we'll crack fusion and suck all the carbon out of the atmosphere, but that again simply buys us another few generations until our industrial waste heat boils the oceans. Until then, rich men will attempt to use carbon capture as leverage to extract even more money and power. "Pay me or I turn the climate up another degree" is not far off from what they're doing today. The only thing that can save us is widespread revolt, strikes, overthrowing governments and forcing action. We've given the political system nearly a century to sort this out, and they are very clearly not interested. It's going to kill us if we don't do something.
- blacksmith_tb 4y ago
  Hmm, I think cynicism is a reasonable response to how we got in this mess, but some of these scenarios seem fairly unconnected to climate change, like "a huge portion of all species die." Human beings have certainly brought about plenty of extinction, but mainly though destruction of habitats, overfishing, etc. Climate change is just a one of many pressures on animal and plant species we have brought to bear. I think it might be possible to take an absurdist attitude, we're pumping out solar panels and wind turbines at a furious clip, it's possible that capitalism will incidentally save us, just like it's incidentally almost killed us up to now.
- fzeroracer 4y ago
  To be fair if we really wanted to , we could phase out fossil fuels instantly and still keep the whole capitalist gig going. Go all in on nuclear power, outlaw cars and replace them with networks of public transit powered by electricity. The government throws billions of dollars into infrastructure creating jobs and opportunity. Go all in on a massive public works project; We know a lot of this is doable on a decade long timescale because China can do it. The problem is that this would require our senators and judges and representatives to not be old and decrepit. They would need to actually live long enough to be affected by climate change. They would need to stop selling out thanks to $10k checks from gas companies and oil companies. The problem is ultimately the country is ruled by rich old people wanting to extract more riches before they die no matter the consequence. And by the time the consequences do come to roost, the only thing that can be done is pissing on their grave.
  - undersuit 4y ago
    No we can't. We need something to replace the fossil fuels instantly. We can build more quickly than we do now. But we can't instantaneously build nuclear to counter the instantaneous fossil fuel shutoff... You say 10 years but you also say instantly.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
throwaway5959 4y ago
Serious question: what are you doing on an individual level to help?
- undersuit 4y ago
  That's the problem. One person can't make a difference. I bike to work and walk to the grocery store. I've reduced my meat and processed food intake(stop shipping preserved foods to me from across the country please). I recycle. I attempt to avoid plastic packaging. All my light fixtures use LED bulbs and I'm pretty good at turning off the lights when I leave a room. I keep the thermostat at 60 in winter and use heating blankets to keep me warm if I'm resting. I have an A/C window unit that is set to 80 in the summer, if I close the office door I only need to cool down 80sqft of me and my computer. I hope to switch to a electric or push mower, but I'm keeping my gas powered lawn mower that came with the house to avoid excess waste, I go weeks between mowing and I never water the lawn explicitly, only my trees; a pine that blocks most of the midday sun until the middle of summer, and a box elder maple the blocks the worst of the summer evening light. I turn off my computers at night, even the computer at the work office I remote into. I sew the holes in my clothes. I repair my dog's toys, OK the dogs are a huge negative on my footprint, but they're rescues at least.
- sph 4y ago
  Rant on the internet to convince people mainstream politics are a fucking scam, and it is not worth any of your time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism It's not much, but it's honest work. But every American has become so passionate about politics, they are infecting the whole world with their blue-v-red bullshit, and single-handedly keeping the charade alive. Even kids, who should strive for idealism or just ignore that game for old men, are nowadays eager to fit themselves into those two neat boxes. It's a disgrace. To answer you directly: whatever I am doing and is in my power to do, is too small to move the needle one way or the other. I eat steak, but it's from organic farms. I enjoy motorsports, but I do not own a car. I'm probably not carbon-negative, but my contribution is towards the bottom of the scale.

by sph 4y ago

rolenthedeep 4y ago

I think it's a pretty pragmatic view. The political system has no interest or even real incentive to fix climate change. Money has corrupted our governments too deeply to alter course in time. There's nothing that you, I, or any individual can do to affect our current trajectory. Not at any scale that actually matters. The only answer is to stop producing fossil fuels right now full stop, no conditions, no "phasing out". And that is simply not feasible because of money. Because we've spent the last half a century ignoring the problem. What do we do? No amount of voting or recycling or buying new cars is going to make any change. It hasn't for 20 years. By the time our society gets its collective head out of its ass enough to vote for political change, we'll already be deep into global famine. I predict two general scenarios: 1. Status quo. Nothing changes, world governments will attempt a massive last ditch effort far, far too late to make a difference. A huge portion of all species die. From there pick your favorite post-apocalyptic movie. 2. The people wisen up and overthrow their governments, string up oil execs, and force decarbonization at any cost. We are currently, right now, TODAY at the stage where we must decarbonize at any cost. Literally no cost is too high. If we shut down oil today, it will be hugely disruptive and destructive to global society. A lot of people will die and many, many more will suffer. This will go on for decades most likely. But the alternative is most likely an extinction level event. Global famine and plague, entire species going extinct, loss of coastlines, entire ecosystems collapsing en masse. Fundamentally, I don't think human psychology at scale can handle that. I expect that nothing barring miracle technology is going to save us, and in our current socioeconomic system, that might be even worse than nothing. So yeah, I think we're doomed. We let capitalism go on for too long and it's too late to change direction. Those with power have systematically taken it from the rest of us so that the people with the incentive to survive longer than their career don't have the power to. The rest have the power to build nuclear bunkers under a mountain, or a rocket to Mars. All because some men wanted to see a number go up. Maybe we'll crack fusion and suck all the carbon out of the atmosphere, but that again simply buys us another few generations until our industrial waste heat boils the oceans. Until then, rich men will attempt to use carbon capture as leverage to extract even more money and power. "Pay me or I turn the climate up another degree" is not far off from what they're doing today. The only thing that can save us is widespread revolt, strikes, overthrowing governments and forcing action. We've given the political system nearly a century to sort this out, and they are very clearly not interested. It's going to kill us if we don't do something.

blacksmith_tb 4y ago
Hmm, I think cynicism is a reasonable response to how we got in this mess, but some of these scenarios seem fairly unconnected to climate change, like "a huge portion of all species die." Human beings have certainly brought about plenty of extinction, but mainly though destruction of habitats, overfishing, etc. Climate change is just a one of many pressures on animal and plant species we have brought to bear. I think it might be possible to take an absurdist attitude, we're pumping out solar panels and wind turbines at a furious clip, it's possible that capitalism will incidentally save us, just like it's incidentally almost killed us up to now.
fzeroracer 4y ago
To be fair if we really wanted to , we could phase out fossil fuels instantly and still keep the whole capitalist gig going. Go all in on nuclear power, outlaw cars and replace them with networks of public transit powered by electricity. The government throws billions of dollars into infrastructure creating jobs and opportunity. Go all in on a massive public works project; We know a lot of this is doable on a decade long timescale because China can do it. The problem is that this would require our senators and judges and representatives to not be old and decrepit. They would need to actually live long enough to be affected by climate change. They would need to stop selling out thanks to $10k checks from gas companies and oil companies. The problem is ultimately the country is ruled by rich old people wanting to extract more riches before they die no matter the consequence. And by the time the consequences do come to roost, the only thing that can be done is pissing on their grave.
- undersuit 4y ago
  No we can't. We need something to replace the fossil fuels instantly. We can build more quickly than we do now. But we can't instantaneously build nuclear to counter the instantaneous fossil fuel shutoff... You say 10 years but you also say instantly.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

throwaway5959 4y ago

Serious question: what are you doing on an individual level to help?

undersuit 4y ago
That's the problem. One person can't make a difference. I bike to work and walk to the grocery store. I've reduced my meat and processed food intake(stop shipping preserved foods to me from across the country please). I recycle. I attempt to avoid plastic packaging. All my light fixtures use LED bulbs and I'm pretty good at turning off the lights when I leave a room. I keep the thermostat at 60 in winter and use heating blankets to keep me warm if I'm resting. I have an A/C window unit that is set to 80 in the summer, if I close the office door I only need to cool down 80sqft of me and my computer. I hope to switch to a electric or push mower, but I'm keeping my gas powered lawn mower that came with the house to avoid excess waste, I go weeks between mowing and I never water the lawn explicitly, only my trees; a pine that blocks most of the midday sun until the middle of summer, and a box elder maple the blocks the worst of the summer evening light. I turn off my computers at night, even the computer at the work office I remote into. I sew the holes in my clothes. I repair my dog's toys, OK the dogs are a huge negative on my footprint, but they're rescues at least.
sph 4y ago
Rant on the internet to convince people mainstream politics are a fucking scam, and it is not worth any of your time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism It's not much, but it's honest work. But every American has become so passionate about politics, they are infecting the whole world with their blue-v-red bullshit, and single-handedly keeping the charade alive. Even kids, who should strive for idealism or just ignore that game for old men, are nowadays eager to fit themselves into those two neat boxes. It's a disgrace. To answer you directly: whatever I am doing and is in my power to do, is too small to move the needle one way or the other. I eat steak, but it's from organic farms. I enjoy motorsports, but I do not own a car. I'm probably not carbon-negative, but my contribution is towards the bottom of the scale.