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Someone help me understand why I should care more about the Chinese government having my data than my own. My own government actually has power over me.

tomatokoolaid 3y ago
The value of the data can be as simple as knowing what negative messages/videos you'll continually watch and how those videos, in part, impact larger swaths of the population. And with data sharing between apps and devices, you could likely track actions across much of the web to the influence of these videos. It's in China's interest, and others, to destabilize the populations of it's enemies. Traditionally this could be through propaganda, but a potentially more powerful force could be to make the population depressed, angry, confused, and distracted. This impacts the real world in your day to day, the communities you live in, and the quality/intentions of elected officials. Now this could easily be accomplished even with the best intentions from the company creating the software. So how nefarious or not this actually is, or how much manipulation the Chinese government is applying here is totally debatable. I'm not arguing for one side of that or the other. My point is data is super powerful, is often tied to apps and devices you don't realize, and can be used to motivate action at large scale, so the holder of the data really does matter. That said, US companies and others outside China also have tons of data and use it for their own profit and potentially to spread propaganda and destabilizing information. In the US, however, the chance of malintent being the driving force is less probable and, as far as I can see, tend more to be influential actors or groups. In these cases, the software company and regulators are more likely to to moderate or suppress this because it can be bad for business. When it's a geopolitical foe who is or simply can cause issues this way, the intentions and lack of regulation are far more problematic.
CPLX 3y ago
[flagged]
- kieselguhr_kid 3y ago
  Setting aside the far more malevolent impact of American power, China has no way to use my data to oppress me. The US does, and routinely uses social media data against its own citizens and people abroad.
  - CPLX 3y ago
    We’re talking about an instant, direct, and unobservable line into the psyches of tens of millions of American teenagers. The only reason this is even an argument is deep influence peddling and a staggering complacency towards the real long term motives of the CCP. Which are related.
    - hax0ron3 3y ago
      This kind of fear about large-scale communist subversion was common back in the 1950s too, yet that generation of American kids turned out mostly fine.
      - CPLX 3y ago
        With or without several hours a day of Russian controlled media in their bedrooms? I’m thinking without right?
    - kieselguhr_kid 3y ago
      This reads more like yellow peril hyperbole than reasoned arguments. The CCP is deeply unpopular in the US, and most US institutions are engaged in a demonization campaign against China. TikTok is horrible and toxic. It should be banned, or at least tightly age-restricted. But I have seen no evidence they're worse than or a bigger threat than other US-based social media empires, and the proponents of those ideas tend to gesture towards vague communist conspiracies rather than point to observable evidence.
      - CPLX 3y ago
        [flagged]
- ssnistfajen 3y ago
  >has as a stated goal destroying American power and replacing it with their own anti-democratic power structures. Source?
  - CPLX 3y ago
    The source is endless direct and to the point statements in Chinese by the leaders of China. If you don’t know before starting the conversation that you’re not really having a serious discussion of US/China relations. Plenty of sources out there but my favorite is Matt Stoller. If you’re actually curious subscribe to his Twitter and Substack.
    - ssnistfajen 3y ago
      >The source is endless direct and to the point statements in Chinese by the leaders of China. Would you be so kind as to point to a link where such "endless" statements are recorded "direct and to the point"? Primary sources are fine. I don't need translators. Making egregious claims while providing zero proof whatsoever is a sign that the only thing you are serious about is manufacturing consent.
      - CPLX 3y ago
        All due respect here, what exactly do you think China’s geopolitical aims are?
        ssnistfajen 3y ago
        To project nationalist rhetoric externally as the means to maintain domestic political legitimacy, just like what the U.S. is doing. I am not affiliated with any sort of decision-making body of the Chinese government so what do I know? It's all just speculation. So, can you kindly provide a source that proves your claims about the Chinese government's stated goals against the U.S.? Just one source, one. It must not be very difficult to retrieve just one source material to back up claims of the existence of this grand death cult campaign propeled by the Chinese government, is it?
hax0ron3 3y ago
You probably should not care about it. The only real threat that China poses to people who live in the West is nuclear war, but that is already deterred by mutually assured destruction and in any case the Chinese government having your social media data does not make it any more likely that they are going to start a nuclear war. China's government is a threat to the people who live in the areas that it controls. Since I live in an area that the US government controls, the US government having my data is almost certainly a bigger danger to me than China having it, although to be fair the US government having my data probably is not a very big danger to me either. I find the NSA's activities to be more insulting than actually frightening.
rationalist 3y ago
Do you think that a country as large as China has agents in your country? If not, then continue to live a blissful life, if so, then how do you think those agents, or agents of any large country, accomplish tasks in other countries? Perhaps you don't have access to anything they want, but perhaps you're a stepping stone to something they do want.
- rationalist 3y ago
  And perhaps you are not today, and of course perhaps all the children in your country are not today, but one day, some of them will be. Some of them will even grow up to be Senators, CEOs, etc. Perhaps, some of those children today, have parents whom China does want to influence.
  - rationalist 3y ago
    Found the Chinese agent (the downvoter).

tomatokoolaid 3y ago

The value of the data can be as simple as knowing what negative messages/videos you'll continually watch and how those videos, in part, impact larger swaths of the population. And with data sharing between apps and devices, you could likely track actions across much of the web to the influence of these videos. It's in China's interest, and others, to destabilize the populations of it's enemies. Traditionally this could be through propaganda, but a potentially more powerful force could be to make the population depressed, angry, confused, and distracted. This impacts the real world in your day to day, the communities you live in, and the quality/intentions of elected officials. Now this could easily be accomplished even with the best intentions from the company creating the software. So how nefarious or not this actually is, or how much manipulation the Chinese government is applying here is totally debatable. I'm not arguing for one side of that or the other. My point is data is super powerful, is often tied to apps and devices you don't realize, and can be used to motivate action at large scale, so the holder of the data really does matter. That said, US companies and others outside China also have tons of data and use it for their own profit and potentially to spread propaganda and destabilizing information. In the US, however, the chance of malintent being the driving force is less probable and, as far as I can see, tend more to be influential actors or groups. In these cases, the software company and regulators are more likely to to moderate or suppress this because it can be bad for business. When it's a geopolitical foe who is or simply can cause issues this way, the intentions and lack of regulation are far more problematic.

CPLX 3y ago

[flagged]

kieselguhr_kid 3y ago
Setting aside the far more malevolent impact of American power, China has no way to use my data to oppress me. The US does, and routinely uses social media data against its own citizens and people abroad.
- CPLX 3y ago
  We’re talking about an instant, direct, and unobservable line into the psyches of tens of millions of American teenagers. The only reason this is even an argument is deep influence peddling and a staggering complacency towards the real long term motives of the CCP. Which are related.
  - hax0ron3 3y ago
    This kind of fear about large-scale communist subversion was common back in the 1950s too, yet that generation of American kids turned out mostly fine.
    - CPLX 3y ago
      With or without several hours a day of Russian controlled media in their bedrooms? I’m thinking without right?
  - kieselguhr_kid 3y ago
    This reads more like yellow peril hyperbole than reasoned arguments. The CCP is deeply unpopular in the US, and most US institutions are engaged in a demonization campaign against China. TikTok is horrible and toxic. It should be banned, or at least tightly age-restricted. But I have seen no evidence they're worse than or a bigger threat than other US-based social media empires, and the proponents of those ideas tend to gesture towards vague communist conspiracies rather than point to observable evidence.
    - CPLX 3y ago
      [flagged]
ssnistfajen 3y ago
>has as a stated goal destroying American power and replacing it with their own anti-democratic power structures. Source?
- CPLX 3y ago
  The source is endless direct and to the point statements in Chinese by the leaders of China. If you don’t know before starting the conversation that you’re not really having a serious discussion of US/China relations. Plenty of sources out there but my favorite is Matt Stoller. If you’re actually curious subscribe to his Twitter and Substack.
  - ssnistfajen 3y ago
    >The source is endless direct and to the point statements in Chinese by the leaders of China. Would you be so kind as to point to a link where such "endless" statements are recorded "direct and to the point"? Primary sources are fine. I don't need translators. Making egregious claims while providing zero proof whatsoever is a sign that the only thing you are serious about is manufacturing consent.
    - CPLX 3y ago
      All due respect here, what exactly do you think China’s geopolitical aims are?
      - ssnistfajen 3y ago
        To project nationalist rhetoric externally as the means to maintain domestic political legitimacy, just like what the U.S. is doing. I am not affiliated with any sort of decision-making body of the Chinese government so what do I know? It's all just speculation. So, can you kindly provide a source that proves your claims about the Chinese government's stated goals against the U.S.? Just one source, one. It must not be very difficult to retrieve just one source material to back up claims of the existence of this grand death cult campaign propeled by the Chinese government, is it?

hax0ron3 3y ago

You probably should not care about it. The only real threat that China poses to people who live in the West is nuclear war, but that is already deterred by mutually assured destruction and in any case the Chinese government having your social media data does not make it any more likely that they are going to start a nuclear war. China's government is a threat to the people who live in the areas that it controls. Since I live in an area that the US government controls, the US government having my data is almost certainly a bigger danger to me than China having it, although to be fair the US government having my data probably is not a very big danger to me either. I find the NSA's activities to be more insulting than actually frightening.

rationalist 3y ago

Do you think that a country as large as China has agents in your country? If not, then continue to live a blissful life, if so, then how do you think those agents, or agents of any large country, accomplish tasks in other countries? Perhaps you don't have access to anything they want, but perhaps you're a stepping stone to something they do want.

rationalist 3y ago
And perhaps you are not today, and of course perhaps all the children in your country are not today, but one day, some of them will be. Some of them will even grow up to be Senators, CEOs, etc. Perhaps, some of those children today, have parents whom China does want to influence.
- rationalist 3y ago
  Found the Chinese agent (the downvoter).