4 ms·

> you entered a contract in which IKEA rented you a house I love how any interaction with a company means we enter into a one-sided contract with them and own

> you entered a contract in which IKEA rented you a house I love how any interaction with a company means we enter into a one-sided contract with them and own nothing, despite spending money. Don't like it? Just go live in a cave! If you are making a purely legal argument, then you are on shaky ground, and there are limits to what is considered a valid contract (especially in the EU), and what terms it may contain, but you might persuade a judge. If you are making a moral argument, it is indefensible.

alphanullmeric 3y ago
You signed the contract. You agreed to it, it doesn’t matter how one sided it was. You could sign a contract to eat shit for a dollar. You’re correct in that some countries restrict consent between individuals.
- rvense 3y ago
  Of course it matters how one-sided it is, and of course it matters whether or not this was obvious at the time of purchase. There's absolutely no way this is legal in Europe, but unfortunately it's sometimes hard to make these big American companies follow the law.
- janoc 3y ago
  That's utter nonsense. You can't consent to stuff that is against the law, esp. when the "power balance" when signing the contract is extremely lopsided. Such contract clauses are routinely ruled invalid and unenforceable.
  - alphanullmeric 3y ago
    Whether I consent to something has little to do with the law. I would hope that the law upholds consent, but as we see in the EU, it doesn’t.
    - Bran_son 3y ago
      The company consented to have its contracts limited by continuing to do business in the EU.
      - alphanullmeric 3y ago
        As did the gays consent to not marrying, or does “you consent if we voted for it” only apply when you like the vote?
        Bran_son 3y ago
        It applies always. But I don't see contractual consent as the highest moral virtue.
- Bran_son 3y ago
  > You agreed to it, it doesn’t matter how one sided it was. The libertarian philosophy in a nutshell. It doesn't matter if society turns into a corporate fiefdom, as long as contracts and property rights are upheld.
  - alphanullmeric 3y ago
    Do your part and say no. Unlike the EU, we won’t make that illegal.
    - Bran_son 3y ago
      > Do your part and say no. I'll do my part and vote to make it illegal, and not reduce myself to a mere consumer. Just like companies don't, and lobby for restrictive patent laws. What happens when one side limits itself to just (individual) consumer choices, while the other uses all political and organizational means available to gain an advantage? In other words, if two players play a game, and one of them limits themselves to only a small subset of moves, while the other uses all, which player will win? > make that illegal. Oh no, that's just consent between individuals. People collectively place terms you agree to by continuing to conduct business in that country. If you don't like it, take your business elsewhere - they can run their countries how they like. You're not saying organizing into companies is legitimate, but organizing into countries isn't, are you?
      - alphanullmeric 3y ago
        Yeah we’ve already established that you want to place restrictions on consent. I also don’t support patents, see what a bit of consistency does for you? I am precisely saying countries are less legitimate than individuals. Governments hold and use their monopoly on force, they do not follow the rules they impose on those they govern. SpaceX can’t claim Mars and beat down anyone that challenges them, and yet that is exactly how most state borders came to be today. But again, if you’re willing to be consistent, then socialists should feel free to move to Cuba, else they consent to living under capitalism.
- _proofs 3y ago
  this is.. not how contracts work at all. contracts in bad-faith or that impose unreasonable stipulations are not exactly binding regardless of a signature. the question of course becomes whether or not it is worth it to litigate but that is another conversation.
  - alphanullmeric 3y ago
    I described the ideal. Ideally, you wouldn’t be able to sign a contract whose contents were made transparent to you, then sue so that only the part of the contract benefitting you is upheld. Yet here we are.

alphanullmeric 3y ago

You signed the contract. You agreed to it, it doesn’t matter how one sided it was. You could sign a contract to eat shit for a dollar. You’re correct in that some countries restrict consent between individuals.

rvense 3y ago
Of course it matters how one-sided it is, and of course it matters whether or not this was obvious at the time of purchase. There's absolutely no way this is legal in Europe, but unfortunately it's sometimes hard to make these big American companies follow the law.
janoc 3y ago
That's utter nonsense. You can't consent to stuff that is against the law, esp. when the "power balance" when signing the contract is extremely lopsided. Such contract clauses are routinely ruled invalid and unenforceable.
- alphanullmeric 3y ago
  Whether I consent to something has little to do with the law. I would hope that the law upholds consent, but as we see in the EU, it doesn’t.
  - Bran_son 3y ago
    The company consented to have its contracts limited by continuing to do business in the EU.
    - alphanullmeric 3y ago
      As did the gays consent to not marrying, or does “you consent if we voted for it” only apply when you like the vote?
      - Bran_son 3y ago
        It applies always. But I don't see contractual consent as the highest moral virtue.
Bran_son 3y ago
> You agreed to it, it doesn’t matter how one sided it was. The libertarian philosophy in a nutshell. It doesn't matter if society turns into a corporate fiefdom, as long as contracts and property rights are upheld.
- alphanullmeric 3y ago
  Do your part and say no. Unlike the EU, we won’t make that illegal.
  - Bran_son 3y ago
    > Do your part and say no. I'll do my part and vote to make it illegal, and not reduce myself to a mere consumer. Just like companies don't, and lobby for restrictive patent laws. What happens when one side limits itself to just (individual) consumer choices, while the other uses all political and organizational means available to gain an advantage? In other words, if two players play a game, and one of them limits themselves to only a small subset of moves, while the other uses all, which player will win? > make that illegal. Oh no, that's just consent between individuals. People collectively place terms you agree to by continuing to conduct business in that country. If you don't like it, take your business elsewhere - they can run their countries how they like. You're not saying organizing into companies is legitimate, but organizing into countries isn't, are you?
    - alphanullmeric 3y ago
      Yeah we’ve already established that you want to place restrictions on consent. I also don’t support patents, see what a bit of consistency does for you? I am precisely saying countries are less legitimate than individuals. Governments hold and use their monopoly on force, they do not follow the rules they impose on those they govern. SpaceX can’t claim Mars and beat down anyone that challenges them, and yet that is exactly how most state borders came to be today. But again, if you’re willing to be consistent, then socialists should feel free to move to Cuba, else they consent to living under capitalism.
_proofs 3y ago
this is.. not how contracts work at all. contracts in bad-faith or that impose unreasonable stipulations are not exactly binding regardless of a signature. the question of course becomes whether or not it is worth it to litigate but that is another conversation.
- alphanullmeric 3y ago
  I described the ideal. Ideally, you wouldn’t be able to sign a contract whose contents were made transparent to you, then sue so that only the part of the contract benefitting you is upheld. Yet here we are.