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I am not convinced. Consider the color red. I can explain the physics of what the color red is, how it travels through space, how my eyes interact with the part

I am not convinced. Consider the color red. I can explain the physics of what the color red is, how it travels through space, how my eyes interact with the particular waves, sends signal to my brain and somehow generates what I think of as "red". But this explanation is meaningless, there's nothing about the waves that explain why "red" is the way it is. For example, why don't I experience red as blue and vice versa? Similarly, consciousness is like that. I can have an explanation down to the quarks and follow the chain of physical phenomena that happen from the big bang up to this point and I will find nothing that would explain why there's "something" at all. In a sense, the fact that the color "red" is the way I perceive it is merely a coincidence. I happen to experience it that way. There's no reason why it has to be that way. I had similar experience when I learnt that some people don't have inner monologue; it completely blew my understanding of what "is like".

kelseyfrog 3y ago
I can't help but think colors above all else are experienced as a learned phenomenon. Anyone with a kiddo, and who has paid attention during this stage of their development should know this effect: colors are context-dependant. You can have a kiddo who can accurately name colors on a printed page, on blocks, or any other reduced setting, and have them completely fail at the real world task The most noticable error is the color of the sky. A kiddo who can, with 100% accuracy telling blue blocks from white blocks will, before correction, label the sky as white. It's uncanny. We often forget this correction as parents, but if you look for it, it's there. I'll can't help but wonder how much of our color perception is stochastic parroting once the appropriate labels have been learned.
- cubefox 3y ago
  Wait, they say it is white not just about a cloudy sky but also about a clear sky? (Which would suggest they think "white" means "bright", which doesn't seem too unreasonable.)
  - kelseyfrog 3y ago
    Yes, a perfectly clear sky. It is a common perceptual illusion. I think it's interesting not that it's wrong, but that children are consistently wrong in the same way.
cubefox 3y ago
Well, the brain story may not be a complete explanation, though a necessary part of it. Just like a motor alone doesn't fully explain why a car drives, while still providing a partial explanation. A plant may lack the equivalence of a "motor" for consciousness, which would mean it can't be conscious. And while the existence of a motor in a car not strictly implies that it can drive, the motor still makes it more likely that it can. So the fact that you have inner monologue, experience red in a certain way instead of another, is evidence that the same holds for other people. Of course there could be defeating evidence in the opposite direction, like reading a survey where most people claim not to have inner monologue. (In terms of colors such evidence seems hard or impossible to obtain though. How would we test for switched color experience? Perhaps physically linking brains in the future.)
- angelbar 3y ago
  "How would we test for switched color experience? Perhaps physically linking brains in the future." Maybe to see the universe from another brain will be a terrifying experience...

kelseyfrog 3y ago

I can't help but think colors above all else are experienced as a learned phenomenon. Anyone with a kiddo, and who has paid attention during this stage of their development should know this effect: colors are context-dependant. You can have a kiddo who can accurately name colors on a printed page, on blocks, or any other reduced setting, and have them completely fail at the real world task The most noticable error is the color of the sky. A kiddo who can, with 100% accuracy telling blue blocks from white blocks will, before correction, label the sky as white. It's uncanny. We often forget this correction as parents, but if you look for it, it's there. I'll can't help but wonder how much of our color perception is stochastic parroting once the appropriate labels have been learned.

cubefox 3y ago
Wait, they say it is white not just about a cloudy sky but also about a clear sky? (Which would suggest they think "white" means "bright", which doesn't seem too unreasonable.)
- kelseyfrog 3y ago
  Yes, a perfectly clear sky. It is a common perceptual illusion. I think it's interesting not that it's wrong, but that children are consistently wrong in the same way.

cubefox 3y ago

Well, the brain story may not be a complete explanation, though a necessary part of it. Just like a motor alone doesn't fully explain why a car drives, while still providing a partial explanation. A plant may lack the equivalence of a "motor" for consciousness, which would mean it can't be conscious. And while the existence of a motor in a car not strictly implies that it can drive, the motor still makes it more likely that it can. So the fact that you have inner monologue, experience red in a certain way instead of another, is evidence that the same holds for other people. Of course there could be defeating evidence in the opposite direction, like reading a survey where most people claim not to have inner monologue. (In terms of colors such evidence seems hard or impossible to obtain though. How would we test for switched color experience? Perhaps physically linking brains in the future.)

angelbar 3y ago
"How would we test for switched color experience? Perhaps physically linking brains in the future." Maybe to see the universe from another brain will be a terrifying experience...