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There are new programmers coming of age every day, so the proportion that even thinks about Objective-C at all (never mind advocates it) is going down down down

There are new programmers coming of age every day, so the proportion that even thinks about Objective-C at all (never mind advocates it) is going down down down.

tempodox 3y ago
Yes, Fashion-Driven Development is going strong in software circles.
m0llusk 3y ago
Honestly, that seems doubtful. The C language has intense dominance and Objective-C puts a nice, minimal, object oriented wrapper on all of that while all the C developer tools remain effective.
- frou_dh 3y ago
  You think teenagers getting into iOS development are pining for that?
  - Apocryphon 3y ago
    It’s a moot point. If they work at Meta, Google, Snapchat, Spotify, etc. they’re going to end up dealing with Objective-C
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      In legacy code bases mostly. The only modern macOS framework that is still written in Objective-C is Metal, and still almost everyone uses the Swift bindings instead.
      - lapcat 3y ago
        > The only modern macOS framework that is still written in Objective-C is Metal This is inaccurate. Extremely inaccurate, nearly 100% mistaken. Almost every macOS framework is still written in Objective-C, including AppKit and Foundation. And the Swift rewrite of Foundation is only beginning: (from December 2022) https://www.swift.org/blog/future-of-foundation/ https://www.swift.org/blog/future-of-foundation/ See also: https://blog.timac.org/2022/0818-state-of-appkit-catalyst-swiftui-mac/ https://blog.timac.org/2022/0818-state-of-appkit-catalyst-sw... and https://blog.timac.org/2022/1005-state-of-swift-and-swiftui-ios16/ https://blog.timac.org/2022/1005-state-of-swift-and-swiftui-...
        interactivecode 3y ago
        The repo for anyone interested: https://github.com/apple/swift-corelibs-foundation https://github.com/apple/swift-corelibs-foundation
        lapcat 3y ago
        It's not clear that's the repo, or that there is a repo yet: https://forums.swift.org/t/what-s-next-for-foundation/61939 https://forums.swift.org/t/what-s-next-for-foundation/61939 > We hope this is just the start of discussions about this exciting new project. In future posts, we want to discuss plans for the existing swift-corelibs-foundation project and figure out how we transition the ecosystem to the new unified implementation.
        pjmlp 3y ago
        Not at all, I explicily mentioned "only modern" on purpose. Most Objective-C stuff that is around, with exception of Metal, traces back to OS X and iOS early days, and carry with them the weight of maintenaince, and development costs of a rewrite. Metal is the only post-Swift framework that was written in Objective-C.
        lapcat 3y ago
        > Metal is the only post-Swift framework that was written in Objective-C. Still untrue. Again, see the referenced blog posts. Indeed, aside from SwiftUI, which is still half-baked on macOS, I'm not aware of many Swift frameworks in the OS. After all, the frameworks still need to provide API to Objective-C apps, including Apple's own apps, not to mention 3rd party apps. The requirements to ship a Swift framework in the system, such as ABI stability and others, are a relatively recent addition to the language: https://www.swift.org/blog/abi-stability-and-more/ https://www.swift.org/blog/abi-stability-and-more/
        pjmlp 3y ago
        None of the related post mentions any other Objective-C framework written from scratch, XCode File=>New without dependencies on older technology, after Swift came to be. > The Objective-C language, AppKit & UIKit frameworks, and Interface Builder have empowered generations of developers. These technologies were built for each other, and will continue to serve us well for a long time to come, but over time new abstractions become necessary. For a while now, you've seen us hard at work defining the next generation of integrated language, frameworks, and tools: Swift, SwiftUI, and Xcode Previews. > > Tight integration in a development platform like this requires that all three pieces be designed and evolved together, both driving and driven by one another. Swift result builders were inspired by SwiftUI's compositional structure. SwiftUI's declarative views were enabled by Swift value types. And Xcode Previews was specifically designed for, and enabled by, both. Now, the result is the best development platform that we have ever built. And this year, Swift, SwiftUI, and Xcode all have fantastic updates that take this vision further, and make it even easier for you to build great apps for all of our platforms. And it all starts with Swift. Now Ben from the Swift team is gonna tell you all about what's next. -- https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2022/102/ https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2022/102/
      - Apocryphon 3y ago
        But that’s the point. There are a lot of legacy code bases, including those supporting huge apps at major companies.
- Klonoar 3y ago
  Literally none of that matters with respect to the comment you’re replying to. It’s fairly common in iOS dev forums to find people who only know Swift.

There are new programmers coming of age every day, so the proportion that even thinks about Objective-C at all (never mind advocates it) is going down down down.

tempodox 3y ago

Yes, Fashion-Driven Development is going strong in software circles.

m0llusk 3y ago

Honestly, that seems doubtful. The C language has intense dominance and Objective-C puts a nice, minimal, object oriented wrapper on all of that while all the C developer tools remain effective.

frou_dh 3y ago
You think teenagers getting into iOS development are pining for that?
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  It’s a moot point. If they work at Meta, Google, Snapchat, Spotify, etc. they’re going to end up dealing with Objective-C
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    In legacy code bases mostly. The only modern macOS framework that is still written in Objective-C is Metal, and still almost everyone uses the Swift bindings instead.
    - lapcat 3y ago
      > The only modern macOS framework that is still written in Objective-C is Metal This is inaccurate. Extremely inaccurate, nearly 100% mistaken. Almost every macOS framework is still written in Objective-C, including AppKit and Foundation. And the Swift rewrite of Foundation is only beginning: (from December 2022) https://www.swift.org/blog/future-of-foundation/ https://www.swift.org/blog/future-of-foundation/ See also: https://blog.timac.org/2022/0818-state-of-appkit-catalyst-swiftui-mac/ https://blog.timac.org/2022/0818-state-of-appkit-catalyst-sw... and https://blog.timac.org/2022/1005-state-of-swift-and-swiftui-ios16/ https://blog.timac.org/2022/1005-state-of-swift-and-swiftui-...
      - interactivecode 3y ago
        The repo for anyone interested: https://github.com/apple/swift-corelibs-foundation https://github.com/apple/swift-corelibs-foundation
        lapcat 3y ago
        It's not clear that's the repo, or that there is a repo yet: https://forums.swift.org/t/what-s-next-for-foundation/61939 https://forums.swift.org/t/what-s-next-for-foundation/61939 > We hope this is just the start of discussions about this exciting new project. In future posts, we want to discuss plans for the existing swift-corelibs-foundation project and figure out how we transition the ecosystem to the new unified implementation.
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        Not at all, I explicily mentioned "only modern" on purpose. Most Objective-C stuff that is around, with exception of Metal, traces back to OS X and iOS early days, and carry with them the weight of maintenaince, and development costs of a rewrite. Metal is the only post-Swift framework that was written in Objective-C.
        lapcat 3y ago
        > Metal is the only post-Swift framework that was written in Objective-C. Still untrue. Again, see the referenced blog posts. Indeed, aside from SwiftUI, which is still half-baked on macOS, I'm not aware of many Swift frameworks in the OS. After all, the frameworks still need to provide API to Objective-C apps, including Apple's own apps, not to mention 3rd party apps. The requirements to ship a Swift framework in the system, such as ABI stability and others, are a relatively recent addition to the language: https://www.swift.org/blog/abi-stability-and-more/ https://www.swift.org/blog/abi-stability-and-more/
        pjmlp 3y ago
        None of the related post mentions any other Objective-C framework written from scratch, XCode File=>New without dependencies on older technology, after Swift came to be. > The Objective-C language, AppKit & UIKit frameworks, and Interface Builder have empowered generations of developers. These technologies were built for each other, and will continue to serve us well for a long time to come, but over time new abstractions become necessary. For a while now, you've seen us hard at work defining the next generation of integrated language, frameworks, and tools: Swift, SwiftUI, and Xcode Previews. > > Tight integration in a development platform like this requires that all three pieces be designed and evolved together, both driving and driven by one another. Swift result builders were inspired by SwiftUI's compositional structure. SwiftUI's declarative views were enabled by Swift value types. And Xcode Previews was specifically designed for, and enabled by, both. Now, the result is the best development platform that we have ever built. And this year, Swift, SwiftUI, and Xcode all have fantastic updates that take this vision further, and make it even easier for you to build great apps for all of our platforms. And it all starts with Swift. Now Ben from the Swift team is gonna tell you all about what's next. -- https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2022/102/ https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2022/102/
    - Apocryphon 3y ago
      But that’s the point. There are a lot of legacy code bases, including those supporting huge apps at major companies.
Klonoar 3y ago
Literally none of that matters with respect to the comment you’re replying to. It’s fairly common in iOS dev forums to find people who only know Swift.