4 ms·

> Do you have any open bug reports you can point to for "Wayland" not working? No. Why should a user go hunting for bug reports, or make an effort in making th

by imiric 3y ago

> Do you have any open bug reports you can point to for "Wayland" not working? No. Why should a user go hunting for bug reports, or make an effort in making them to begin with? Developers shouldn't expect users to report every issue they run into. Most users will see something not working as expected, and move on to something that does. Fighting with software to make it work, a.k.a. "dealing with it", is a behavior exclusive to technical users and tinkerers. And even this cohort won't be bothered to do so when they just want their machines to work. > Which compositor were you try to use? How should I know? All I know is that I selected "Wayland" in my login screen, and ran into a half-dozen UI issues in less than 5 minutes, which I can't be bothered to list now (I posted about it here a few weeks ago if you're interested to know the details). Switching back to Xorg fixed all of them. With the complexity of a DE like KDE, I, a technical user, wouldn't even know where to look for the culprit. Was it KWin, XWayland or Wayland? When Firefox had UI issues, is that because of Firefox, XWayland or Wayland? Or something with my combination of hardware and drivers? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Developers shouldn't expect users to debug their application issues. Users are not testers.

rektide 3y ago
I feel like a commercial OS is a better fit for attitude/desires. You should know to be able to type `journalctl` which will almost certainly give you a report on what just happened. Filing a big report feels like a pretty low barrier to me. It's stunning to me to see such a strong rebuttal, expecting developers to mind read & inuit every possible thing a user might run into. To shun openness, to remain closed & curt & expectant, feels more like a consumer relationship, where you don't have any real ability to speak or be present. But do have that ability, you can provide info that would make things better for everyone, and to me that barrier to helping feels extremely low. Not a burden.
- michaelmrose 3y ago
  Time is precious. Users aren't owed a desired feature and developers aren't owed a bug report. 99.99% of users who aren't explicitly beta testing software when they encounter a deal breaker using software they aren't heavily invested in will move on without comment or complaint. Not having debugged or written up an issue doesn't invalidate the persons impression that the software just didn't work well for them.
  - rektide 3y ago
    Open source as open society deeply deeply motivated & interested me. Open source isn't only for open society, but I think it's best & can only ever hope to advance itself aptly & with good calibration when society sees themselves as reasonably staked in too, as more than just a consumer consuming something given to them. I feel like people spend more effort trashing & talking down software in forums like this, than it would have taken to make an even mostly-constructive tiny little data point that could actually help open source, and open society. The author, a NixOS user, almost certainly had plenty of basic technical chops they could have brought to bare within mere seconds to get some first level idea what happened, which they refused. The malice/concentrated-negativity, combined with the lack of effort, to me, invalidate my willingness to take someone seriously. There are plenty of good valid useful ways to share the view & be part of open society. Just trying to tear out the supports of the building & make it crash down- anger- is not an acceptable enduring view; it's an ok initial reaction, but eventually realer more mature cycles have to begin (unless despair & ruin is the objective)
    - imiric 3y ago
      I agree with you on the philosophy of open source, and how important it is, but allow me to defend my viewpoint. As a passionate long time supporter, user and developer of OSS, my reaction was purely based on that "deal with it" quote from TFA. All software, regardless of its licensing terms, should first and foremost deliver a usable product. The expectation that users of free software (in both meanings of the word "free") are somehow under moral obligation to test the software and report issues to the authors is wrong, just as OSS developers aren't under any obligation to implement specific features or provide support. These freedoms go both ways. But when a developer takes the hostile stance of prioritizing their QoL over their users', as in TFA, that is the attitude that's hurting users, and the adoption of OSS. I appreciate the effort the Asahi team is making, but this is a toxic attitude that shouldn't be part of any project. Most of the time, I do take the effort to diagnose issues and report them where appropriate. But as you can see detailed below[1], the issues I experienced were so obvious that I assumed they had already been reported. Given the complexity of an environment like KDE, it would have definitely taken me hours of my time to properly diagnose and report these issues. And sometimes, I just want to get work done, without "dealing with" my machine... The reality is that most users feel this way, so this response shouldn't be surprising. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35932839 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35932839

by imiric 3y ago

rektide 3y ago

I feel like a commercial OS is a better fit for attitude/desires. You should know to be able to type `journalctl` which will almost certainly give you a report on what just happened. Filing a big report feels like a pretty low barrier to me. It's stunning to me to see such a strong rebuttal, expecting developers to mind read & inuit every possible thing a user might run into. To shun openness, to remain closed & curt & expectant, feels more like a consumer relationship, where you don't have any real ability to speak or be present. But do have that ability, you can provide info that would make things better for everyone, and to me that barrier to helping feels extremely low. Not a burden.

michaelmrose 3y ago
Time is precious. Users aren't owed a desired feature and developers aren't owed a bug report. 99.99% of users who aren't explicitly beta testing software when they encounter a deal breaker using software they aren't heavily invested in will move on without comment or complaint. Not having debugged or written up an issue doesn't invalidate the persons impression that the software just didn't work well for them.
- rektide 3y ago
  Open source as open society deeply deeply motivated & interested me. Open source isn't only for open society, but I think it's best & can only ever hope to advance itself aptly & with good calibration when society sees themselves as reasonably staked in too, as more than just a consumer consuming something given to them. I feel like people spend more effort trashing & talking down software in forums like this, than it would have taken to make an even mostly-constructive tiny little data point that could actually help open source, and open society. The author, a NixOS user, almost certainly had plenty of basic technical chops they could have brought to bare within mere seconds to get some first level idea what happened, which they refused. The malice/concentrated-negativity, combined with the lack of effort, to me, invalidate my willingness to take someone seriously. There are plenty of good valid useful ways to share the view & be part of open society. Just trying to tear out the supports of the building & make it crash down- anger- is not an acceptable enduring view; it's an ok initial reaction, but eventually realer more mature cycles have to begin (unless despair & ruin is the objective)
  - imiric 3y ago
    I agree with you on the philosophy of open source, and how important it is, but allow me to defend my viewpoint. As a passionate long time supporter, user and developer of OSS, my reaction was purely based on that "deal with it" quote from TFA. All software, regardless of its licensing terms, should first and foremost deliver a usable product. The expectation that users of free software (in both meanings of the word "free") are somehow under moral obligation to test the software and report issues to the authors is wrong, just as OSS developers aren't under any obligation to implement specific features or provide support. These freedoms go both ways. But when a developer takes the hostile stance of prioritizing their QoL over their users', as in TFA, that is the attitude that's hurting users, and the adoption of OSS. I appreciate the effort the Asahi team is making, but this is a toxic attitude that shouldn't be part of any project. Most of the time, I do take the effort to diagnose issues and report them where appropriate. But as you can see detailed below[1], the issues I experienced were so obvious that I assumed they had already been reported. Given the complexity of an environment like KDE, it would have definitely taken me hours of my time to properly diagnose and report these issues. And sometimes, I just want to get work done, without "dealing with" my machine... The reality is that most users feel this way, so this response shouldn't be surprising. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35932839 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35932839