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I'm an Asahi user and I back the project on Patreon. I also use xorg and don't have any plans on switching to Wayland any time soon. My reason is simple, there

I'm an Asahi user and I back the project on Patreon. I also use xorg and don't have any plans on switching to Wayland any time soon. My reason is simple, there isn't an equivalent to xmonad on Wayland (nope sway isn't an equivalent for me). I don't have any issue with Asahi focusing on Wayland first. But this attitude doesn't make me feel great. Is it really so difficult to have a little bit of empathy for your end users?

mdhen 3y ago
You are so entitled. Xorg is dead, you can use it. Don't expect anyone to help you though.
- michaelmrose 3y ago
  The person expressed disappointment not entitlement. People aren't entitled to others labor but they are certainly entitled to have an opinion. Aside from that X is still used by the majority of users. Calling it dead is to invoke Monty Python. X: I'm not dead yet Wayland Proponents: Well, he will be soon. He's very ill. X: I support rootless operation and mixed DPI Wayland Proponents: You'll be stone dead in a moment. X: I think I'll release a new version of a window manager Wayland Proponents: You're not fooling anyone, you know. Look. Isn't there something you can do? X: [singing] I feel happy. I feel happy. [whop]
gjsman-1000 3y ago
> Is it really so difficult to have a little bit of empathy for your end users? That’s easy to say if you’ve never worked on Xorg. The codebase is one of the worst in existence, few people fully understand it, and fixing bugs in it is a modern Sisyphean wheel.
- psanford 3y ago
  I'm really not asking for that. I'm asking for communication that doesn't feel dismissive.
  - gjsman-1000 3y ago
    I think it’s more exhaustion at the fact users do not want to move on; and yet, this is Linux in 2023. - GNOME is Wayland by default - Red Hat has announced Xorg is depreciated. A big deal considering they were basically keeping Xorg on life support single-handedly. Without Red Hat, there’s basically nobody working on it anymore. - KDE Plasma 6 has announced Wayland is default now. At some point, it becomes like a user complaining that OS/2 is no longer supported. It’s dead, X11 is older than OS/2 (June 1984!), we are all collectively exhausted, time to move on. If xmonad doesn’t work for your system; take it up with them.
    - t-3 3y ago
      What does the origin date of X11 have to do with anything? Doesn't look abandoned or dead: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/commits/master https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/commits/master
      - mort96 3y ago
        Look again. Almost all those commits are for XWayland. XWayland is not going away. X as a display server is more or less abandoned.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
      > exhaustion at the fact users do not want to move on The users will move on when the replacement is unambiguously better, and/or at least has feature parity. Telling someone to throw out their working setup is a lot of why Wayland is viewed by some people with derision.
    - michaelmrose 3y ago
      It's unreasonable to expect an X window manager developer to both maintain their WM and invest in writing a compositor a MUCH larger project. It's vastly easier for everyone involved to just keep using X. The age of the original X protocol is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Unlike OS/2 it's a living feature complete project. It doesn't spoil like cabbage.
complex1314 3y ago
It's just a heads up that it will not be on their timeline to fix. My empathy would be with the developers and maintainers of this amazing project (and all open source maintainers in a similar situation).

mdhen 3y ago

You are so entitled. Xorg is dead, you can use it. Don't expect anyone to help you though.

michaelmrose 3y ago
The person expressed disappointment not entitlement. People aren't entitled to others labor but they are certainly entitled to have an opinion. Aside from that X is still used by the majority of users. Calling it dead is to invoke Monty Python. X: I'm not dead yet Wayland Proponents: Well, he will be soon. He's very ill. X: I support rootless operation and mixed DPI Wayland Proponents: You'll be stone dead in a moment. X: I think I'll release a new version of a window manager Wayland Proponents: You're not fooling anyone, you know. Look. Isn't there something you can do? X: [singing] I feel happy. I feel happy. [whop]

gjsman-1000 3y ago

> Is it really so difficult to have a little bit of empathy for your end users? That’s easy to say if you’ve never worked on Xorg. The codebase is one of the worst in existence, few people fully understand it, and fixing bugs in it is a modern Sisyphean wheel.

psanford 3y ago
I'm really not asking for that. I'm asking for communication that doesn't feel dismissive.
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  I think it’s more exhaustion at the fact users do not want to move on; and yet, this is Linux in 2023. - GNOME is Wayland by default - Red Hat has announced Xorg is depreciated. A big deal considering they were basically keeping Xorg on life support single-handedly. Without Red Hat, there’s basically nobody working on it anymore. - KDE Plasma 6 has announced Wayland is default now. At some point, it becomes like a user complaining that OS/2 is no longer supported. It’s dead, X11 is older than OS/2 (June 1984!), we are all collectively exhausted, time to move on. If xmonad doesn’t work for your system; take it up with them.
  - t-3 3y ago
    What does the origin date of X11 have to do with anything? Doesn't look abandoned or dead: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/commits/master https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/commits/master
    - mort96 3y ago
      Look again. Almost all those commits are for XWayland. XWayland is not going away. X as a display server is more or less abandoned.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
    > exhaustion at the fact users do not want to move on The users will move on when the replacement is unambiguously better, and/or at least has feature parity. Telling someone to throw out their working setup is a lot of why Wayland is viewed by some people with derision.
  - michaelmrose 3y ago
    It's unreasonable to expect an X window manager developer to both maintain their WM and invest in writing a compositor a MUCH larger project. It's vastly easier for everyone involved to just keep using X. The age of the original X protocol is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Unlike OS/2 it's a living feature complete project. It doesn't spoil like cabbage.

complex1314 3y ago

It's just a heads up that it will not be on their timeline to fix. My empathy would be with the developers and maintainers of this amazing project (and all open source maintainers in a similar situation).