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"Yes, because we all know that humans care so much about the suffering of others" Many humans really do care about this.

by jmfldn 3y ago

Lionga 3y ago
No, many humans like to virtue signal or pretend to feel good about themselves.
- ericb 3y ago
  I feel like this is also what evil people tell themselves. They need an internal explanation for the wondrous and beautiful goodwill and altruism in the world, and if they project their selfish world-view out, the only explanation they can come up with is that it must be self-interested behavior, somehow. It's like the idea that some people want to make the world better is inconceivable to them, because they don't.
  - temac 3y ago
    Virtue signaling is about telling the world how good you are. There is no practical difference between being altruistic intrinsically for others or subconsciously to feel good about yourself. We may even never be able to distinguish between the two. There is a practical difference between helping others and loudly bragging about it.
  - Lionga 3y ago
    I feel like this is what people tell themselves that can't accept who they really are. They need an internal explanation for why their are so much more moral and better than the rest. It's like the idea that they are just made of the same atoms that just follow the laws of physics and have all the same neural pathways and are not some divine, good being is inconceivable to them.
    - archon1410 3y ago
      the wise man bowed his head solemnly and spoke: "theres actually zero difference between good & bad things. you imbecile. you fucking moron" - dril (https://twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312 https://twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312)
      - Lionga 3y ago
        The difference between good & bad things is whatever you say a good or a bad thing is. But it is and always will be an opinion and not a fact.
    - jmfldn 3y ago
      It's ironic you should allude to religion in this, particularly as many religions literally speak of the inherent evil that afflicts most of mankind and which is so hard to overcome. Cf original sin. Now I don't believe that, and I'm not religious, but I'm just pointing out that your statement doesn't work. If anything, the average religious person has a much darker take on human nature. Personally I think that many humans care to varying degrees, but real advanced selfless concern for the suffering of other beings is quite rare.
    - ericb 3y ago
      Have you ever helped someone without some connection to a reward? As a thought experiment, you are in a room with a deaf, blind dying person--they will soon be gone from this world. They are reaching for water you can see on their bedside, but can't quite reach it. Do you bother to cross the room to hand it to them if they will never "be aware of your virtue"? Why expend the energy? Compassion is real, for those who have it. And to be clear, my definition of evil isn't intended here as some religious appeal. In my view, we are all playing an iterated prisoner's dilemma with each other, and good is believing in a better world and collaborating, while evil is defecting and making everything worse for everyone.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- jmfldn 3y ago
  Many yes, not all. Compassion is a real thing.
- jamilton 3y ago
  You don't believe altruism exists even a little bit?
archon1410 3y ago
Agreed. To anyone reading this: do not feel alone in this. Despite the scale of evil and the scale of suffering in this world, good people, opposed to suffering and evil, still exist. Anti-war people exist, people who do not turn a blind eye to factory farms, to the torture and killings, exist. Religious and non-religious, vegans and Jains, theists and atheists, Quakers and animal rights activists, exist. They do the things they do sometimes even at a great cost to themselves. So, do not feel alone in this.
JieJie 3y ago
I appreciate your compassion and empathy for the suffering of others. I share your concern and your desire to help. But I also think that all humans care at some basic level, it’s pretty difficult for us not to. Most of the turning away we see is more about self-protection from the gnawing feelings of despair that empathy generates. We would all do better to not make this about “who cares more”, but more about “what actions are we willing to put behind our care". That is likely to be a more productive conversation, and a starting point towards encouraging people to focus on action and not on feelings. (Bing helped me write this.)

"Yes, because we all know that humans care so much about the suffering of others" Many humans really do care about this.

by jmfldn 3y ago

"Yes, because we all know that humans care so much about the suffering of others" Many humans really do care about this.

Lionga 3y ago

No, many humans like to virtue signal or pretend to feel good about themselves.

ericb 3y ago
I feel like this is also what evil people tell themselves. They need an internal explanation for the wondrous and beautiful goodwill and altruism in the world, and if they project their selfish world-view out, the only explanation they can come up with is that it must be self-interested behavior, somehow. It's like the idea that some people want to make the world better is inconceivable to them, because they don't.
- temac 3y ago
  Virtue signaling is about telling the world how good you are. There is no practical difference between being altruistic intrinsically for others or subconsciously to feel good about yourself. We may even never be able to distinguish between the two. There is a practical difference between helping others and loudly bragging about it.
- Lionga 3y ago
  I feel like this is what people tell themselves that can't accept who they really are. They need an internal explanation for why their are so much more moral and better than the rest. It's like the idea that they are just made of the same atoms that just follow the laws of physics and have all the same neural pathways and are not some divine, good being is inconceivable to them.
  - archon1410 3y ago
    the wise man bowed his head solemnly and spoke: "theres actually zero difference between good & bad things. you imbecile. you fucking moron" - dril (https://twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312 https://twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312)
    - Lionga 3y ago
      The difference between good & bad things is whatever you say a good or a bad thing is. But it is and always will be an opinion and not a fact.
  - jmfldn 3y ago
    It's ironic you should allude to religion in this, particularly as many religions literally speak of the inherent evil that afflicts most of mankind and which is so hard to overcome. Cf original sin. Now I don't believe that, and I'm not religious, but I'm just pointing out that your statement doesn't work. If anything, the average religious person has a much darker take on human nature. Personally I think that many humans care to varying degrees, but real advanced selfless concern for the suffering of other beings is quite rare.
  - ericb 3y ago
    Have you ever helped someone without some connection to a reward? As a thought experiment, you are in a room with a deaf, blind dying person--they will soon be gone from this world. They are reaching for water you can see on their bedside, but can't quite reach it. Do you bother to cross the room to hand it to them if they will never "be aware of your virtue"? Why expend the energy? Compassion is real, for those who have it. And to be clear, my definition of evil isn't intended here as some religious appeal. In my view, we are all playing an iterated prisoner's dilemma with each other, and good is believing in a better world and collaborating, while evil is defecting and making everything worse for everyone.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
jmfldn 3y ago
Many yes, not all. Compassion is a real thing.
jamilton 3y ago
You don't believe altruism exists even a little bit?

archon1410 3y ago

Agreed. To anyone reading this: do not feel alone in this. Despite the scale of evil and the scale of suffering in this world, good people, opposed to suffering and evil, still exist. Anti-war people exist, people who do not turn a blind eye to factory farms, to the torture and killings, exist. Religious and non-religious, vegans and Jains, theists and atheists, Quakers and animal rights activists, exist. They do the things they do sometimes even at a great cost to themselves. So, do not feel alone in this.

JieJie 3y ago

I appreciate your compassion and empathy for the suffering of others. I share your concern and your desire to help. But I also think that all humans care at some basic level, it’s pretty difficult for us not to. Most of the turning away we see is more about self-protection from the gnawing feelings of despair that empathy generates. We would all do better to not make this about “who cares more”, but more about “what actions are we willing to put behind our care". That is likely to be a more productive conversation, and a starting point towards encouraging people to focus on action and not on feelings. (Bing helped me write this.)