4 ms·

> Nothing wrong with killing animals for food, the problem is we don't do it humanely. What if a hypothetical alien super-intelligence came to earth and found

by zvmaz 3y ago

> Nothing wrong with killing animals for food, the problem is we don't do it humanely. What if a hypothetical alien super-intelligence came to earth and found us very tasty, thus killing us for food and pleasure (maybe "humanly")? I wish I found a way out of the many dilemmas of meat eating (currently eating it).

ChrisClark 3y ago
You sound like me. I'm a vegetarian "in spirit", I care, but I love eating meat too much. Hopefully we get affordable lab grown meat soon.
ly3xqhl8g9 3y ago
Good news we taste awful. I mean we eat antibiotics-driven factory farm meats. How good can we taste?
- layer8 3y ago
  They’ll probably feed us up with healthy organic food first, and deny us those pesky antibiotics.
  - ly3xqhl8g9 3y ago
    Well, in that case, I guess, chef, bring the aioli.
wincy 3y ago
You can avoid all these dilemmas by remembering that humans were given the divine spark, and given dominion over all animals by the one true God. Also, since animals don’t have souls and we do, it’s fine if we eat the aliens. They can’t eat us, obviously, that would be immoral. I can hardly imagine how tortured and awful an existence it’d be to not believe that humans are special and unique, and that we just go into the dirt and stop existing when we die. We humans truly are the most fortunate beings in the cosmos! I used to be a fairly militant atheist but I feel much less conflicted now about these things and am far more relaxed and at ease.
- dTal 3y ago
  I prefer to believe things because they're true, rather than because they're convenient. You can indeed avoid a lot of awkward moral dilemmas by simply declaring yourself more morally deserving by definition, but in doing so you leave the path of morality entirely. And in that case, why stop at the human species? You can avoid even more moral dilemmas by declaring yourself inherently superior to other humans. I believe this is popular amongst the billionaire set.
layer8 3y ago
One salient difference is that animals don’t seem to be capable of hypothesizing about their futures, including their death. Unlike humans, they are are oblivious of the fact that they will die someday (or be slaughtered someday). Sean Carroll had an interesting podcast episode related to that: https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2023/01/02/221-adam-bulley-on-how-mental-time-travel-makes-us-human/ https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2023/01/02/221-...
- blibble 3y ago
  > Unlike humans, they are are oblivious of the fact that they will die someday (or be slaughtered someday). how do you know?
  - layer8 3y ago
    Personally I don’t strictly know (hence “seem”), but it seems plausible to me, and if animals did regularly mentally time travel like humans do, there should be more evidence of it.
    - ly3xqhl8g9 3y ago
      Apparently there are at least five animals orders that do grieve: elephants, monkeys, dolphins, giraffes, dogs. It is imaginable that one of them might infer: if they died, maybe I will also die someday. [1] https://www.harpercollins.com/blogs/harperkids/the-five-animals-that-grieve https://www.harpercollins.com/blogs/harperkids/the-five-anim...
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    We can have a pretty good idea based on observing behavior and mapping their brains.
PrimeMcFly 3y ago
I've always found that alien argument weak. Humans pass a threshold given that we have self-awareness. None of the animals we eat for food do. If aliens were advanced enough to travel earth hopefully they would have a similar set of ethics. Of if they were just warmongers/conquerors it wouldn't matter.
- zvmaz 3y ago
  How do you know other animals are not self-aware? Is self-awareness a criteria for not being killed and eaten? Is it not pain and suffering that really matters?
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    Because we have numerous tests that test for self-awareness, we can infer from behavior, and we can study brain layout and activity. Pain and suffering are irrelevant given we can kill animals in a humane way. Only the right to life is relevant.
    - ly3xqhl8g9 3y ago
      The bluestreak cleaner wrasse [1-3] runs back and forth comparing the size of itself from an image with potential threats to know if it must fight or flight. Octopuses are famously smart [4]. Any intelligence or self-awareness test is also a test on the tester: how good are they in detecting what matters for the biomachine [5]/animal in testing. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleaner_fish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleaner_fish [2] video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujy9EmUzN4E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujy9EmUzN4E [3] article: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2208420120 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2208420120 [4] https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/octopuses-keep-surprising-us-here-are-eight-examples-how.html https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/octopuses-keep-surprising-us-... [5] "Xenobots: the Age of Biological Robots", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w77_yhkXzzo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w77_yhkXzzo
      - PrimeMcFly 3y ago

by zvmaz 3y ago

ChrisClark 3y ago

You sound like me. I'm a vegetarian "in spirit", I care, but I love eating meat too much. Hopefully we get affordable lab grown meat soon.

ly3xqhl8g9 3y ago

Good news we taste awful. I mean we eat antibiotics-driven factory farm meats. How good can we taste?

layer8 3y ago
They’ll probably feed us up with healthy organic food first, and deny us those pesky antibiotics.
- ly3xqhl8g9 3y ago
  Well, in that case, I guess, chef, bring the aioli.

wincy 3y ago

You can avoid all these dilemmas by remembering that humans were given the divine spark, and given dominion over all animals by the one true God. Also, since animals don’t have souls and we do, it’s fine if we eat the aliens. They can’t eat us, obviously, that would be immoral. I can hardly imagine how tortured and awful an existence it’d be to not believe that humans are special and unique, and that we just go into the dirt and stop existing when we die. We humans truly are the most fortunate beings in the cosmos! I used to be a fairly militant atheist but I feel much less conflicted now about these things and am far more relaxed and at ease.

dTal 3y ago
I prefer to believe things because they're true, rather than because they're convenient. You can indeed avoid a lot of awkward moral dilemmas by simply declaring yourself more morally deserving by definition, but in doing so you leave the path of morality entirely. And in that case, why stop at the human species? You can avoid even more moral dilemmas by declaring yourself inherently superior to other humans. I believe this is popular amongst the billionaire set.

layer8 3y ago

One salient difference is that animals don’t seem to be capable of hypothesizing about their futures, including their death. Unlike humans, they are are oblivious of the fact that they will die someday (or be slaughtered someday). Sean Carroll had an interesting podcast episode related to that: https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2023/01/02/221-adam-bulley-on-how-mental-time-travel-makes-us-human/ https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2023/01/02/221-...

blibble 3y ago
> Unlike humans, they are are oblivious of the fact that they will die someday (or be slaughtered someday). how do you know?
- layer8 3y ago
  Personally I don’t strictly know (hence “seem”), but it seems plausible to me, and if animals did regularly mentally time travel like humans do, there should be more evidence of it.
  - ly3xqhl8g9 3y ago
    Apparently there are at least five animals orders that do grieve: elephants, monkeys, dolphins, giraffes, dogs. It is imaginable that one of them might infer: if they died, maybe I will also die someday. [1] https://www.harpercollins.com/blogs/harperkids/the-five-animals-that-grieve https://www.harpercollins.com/blogs/harperkids/the-five-anim...
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  We can have a pretty good idea based on observing behavior and mapping their brains.

PrimeMcFly 3y ago

I've always found that alien argument weak. Humans pass a threshold given that we have self-awareness. None of the animals we eat for food do. If aliens were advanced enough to travel earth hopefully they would have a similar set of ethics. Of if they were just warmongers/conquerors it wouldn't matter.

zvmaz 3y ago
How do you know other animals are not self-aware? Is self-awareness a criteria for not being killed and eaten? Is it not pain and suffering that really matters?
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  Because we have numerous tests that test for self-awareness, we can infer from behavior, and we can study brain layout and activity. Pain and suffering are irrelevant given we can kill animals in a humane way. Only the right to life is relevant.
  - ly3xqhl8g9 3y ago
    The bluestreak cleaner wrasse [1-3] runs back and forth comparing the size of itself from an image with potential threats to know if it must fight or flight. Octopuses are famously smart [4]. Any intelligence or self-awareness test is also a test on the tester: how good are they in detecting what matters for the biomachine [5]/animal in testing. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleaner_fish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleaner_fish [2] video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujy9EmUzN4E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujy9EmUzN4E [3] article: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2208420120 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2208420120 [4] https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/octopuses-keep-surprising-us-here-are-eight-examples-how.html https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/octopuses-keep-surprising-us-... [5] "Xenobots: the Age of Biological Robots", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w77_yhkXzzo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w77_yhkXzzo
    - PrimeMcFly 3y ago