4 ms·

Just reading all of this (I haven't used ligatures when coding), but the confusion between a ligature of >= and the Unicode ≥ (U+2265) could be handled by the l

by rswail 3y ago

Just reading all of this (I haven't used ligatures when coding), but the confusion between a ligature of >= and the Unicode ≥ (U+2265) could be handled by the language parser accepting either to mean "greater than or equal to". Would moving beyond ASCII be that much of a stretch for modern languages?

pwdisswordfishc 3y ago
I can’t wait for a programming language that considers the strings ">=" and "≥" to be equal.
- samatman 3y ago
  The Raku language does so already, and isn't the only one. Unclear if it will ever be ubiquitous, but I'm betting on widespread in a couple decades.
  - kps 3y ago
    That's awful. Can you have "<=" ≡ "≤" and "<=" ≡ "⇐" but "≤" ≢ "⇐"?
eloisius 3y ago
Most modern languages already use Unicode for variable names and such. But why would you want to type a Unicode lte/gte character? I’m sure it’s not that hard on a Mac keyboard, but can’t be easier than <=
- xigoi 3y ago
  Because readability is more important than writeability.
- eviks 3y ago
  Of course it can be easier since <= are a shifted char and a very far pinky char. Yes, you'd have to use a keyboard remapping tool to make it easier And the most basic reason is because a dedicated symbol looks much better (and doesn't break vertical alignment since it's one glyph)
- jeroenhd 3y ago
  > Most modern languages already use Unicode for variable names and such I've never actually thought about using comparative characters, but that actually makes a lot of sense. I think people will disagree if you use them, but there's no reason why you wouldn't be able to call a variable x≥y≤z…
- layer8 3y ago
  You could make “>“ a dead character that combines with “=“ to “≥”. Then it’s just as easy to type (at the price of a verbatim “>=“ becoming slightly harder to type).
zokier 3y ago
Modern languages do have unicode operators. See for example Julia[1] and Raku[2] [1] https://docs.julialang.org/en/v1/manual/mathematical-operations/#Numeric-Comparisons https://docs.julialang.org/en/v1/manual/mathematical-operati... [2] https://docs.raku.org/language/operators.html https://docs.raku.org/language/operators.html
- toastal 3y ago
  Agda & PureScript support it, Haskell with the Unicode pragma too
- lizmat 3y ago
  Note that the Raku Programming Language has pure ASCII equivalents for all operators as well, for the Unicode challenged. E.g. ≠ vs !=, ≤ vs <=, ≥ vs >= etc. etc.
  - sundarurfriend 3y ago
    Same with Julia too.
- nottorp 3y ago
  That's fun but how do I type them?
  - chrismorgan 3y ago
    A Compose key is the best general-purpose way. For example: • ≥: Compose > = • ≠: Compose / = You can define your own sequences too, if you want. I like to type exactly what I mean, including curly quotes and dashes and narrow no-break spaces and emoji and so on, but often didn’t like the default mappings (if there were any). As an example, I use this for curly quotes (look at the keys’ locations on the keyboard to understand—it’s coherent): <Multi_key> <semicolon> <semicolon> : "‘" <Multi_key> <apostrophe> <apostrophe> : "’" <Multi_key> <colon> <colon> : "“" <Multi_key> <quotedbl> <quotedbl> : "”" (The only thing I can think of where I don’t normally type what I’d theoretically like to is hyphens, where I use ASCII’s HYPHEN-MINUS instead of the proper HYPHEN. I’ve never come up with a mapping I like—what with en dash, em dash, minus, &c.—and it’s also too common for fonts to lack a HYPHEN glyph.) When you’re used to this sort of thing, it comes completely naturally. Somewhat more information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose_key https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose_key
sundarurfriend 3y ago
Julia does this: help?> ≥ "≥" can be typed by \ge<tab> search: ≥ >=(x, y) ≥(x,y) Greater-than-or-equals comparison operator. Falls back to y <= x. Examples ≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡ julia> 'a' >= 'b' false julia> 7 ≥ 7 ≥ 3 true
RobotToaster 3y ago
#define ≥ >= You could even compile a bunch of them into a header file.
bombcar 3y ago
APL says hi. life ← {⊃1 ⍵ ∨.∧ 3 4 = +/ +⌿ ¯1 0 1 ∘.⊖ ¯1 0 1 ⌽¨ ⊂⍵}
layer8 3y ago
This is a problem insofar as when searching for “>=“ or “≥“ you will only match one of them, and you are prone to getting a mix of both in your codebase. Ligatures effectively create a non-canonical rendering, and then adding a non-canonical alternate encoding doesn’t really improve the situation. A proper way would arguably be for the programming language to only understand “≥“, and for editors to provide support for entering such characters (or the user can configure a system-wide Compose key or similar). IMO we should work on standardizing keyboard input for those symbols instead of de-standardizing code display via ligatures.

by rswail 3y ago

pwdisswordfishc 3y ago

I can’t wait for a programming language that considers the strings ">=" and "≥" to be equal.

samatman 3y ago
The Raku language does so already, and isn't the only one. Unclear if it will ever be ubiquitous, but I'm betting on widespread in a couple decades.
- kps 3y ago
  That's awful. Can you have "<=" ≡ "≤" and "<=" ≡ "⇐" but "≤" ≢ "⇐"?

eloisius 3y ago

Most modern languages already use Unicode for variable names and such. But why would you want to type a Unicode lte/gte character? I’m sure it’s not that hard on a Mac keyboard, but can’t be easier than <=

xigoi 3y ago
Because readability is more important than writeability.
eviks 3y ago
Of course it can be easier since <= are a shifted char and a very far pinky char. Yes, you'd have to use a keyboard remapping tool to make it easier And the most basic reason is because a dedicated symbol looks much better (and doesn't break vertical alignment since it's one glyph)
jeroenhd 3y ago
> Most modern languages already use Unicode for variable names and such I've never actually thought about using comparative characters, but that actually makes a lot of sense. I think people will disagree if you use them, but there's no reason why you wouldn't be able to call a variable x≥y≤z…
layer8 3y ago
You could make “>“ a dead character that combines with “=“ to “≥”. Then it’s just as easy to type (at the price of a verbatim “>=“ becoming slightly harder to type).

zokier 3y ago

Modern languages do have unicode operators. See for example Julia[1] and Raku[2] [1] https://docs.julialang.org/en/v1/manual/mathematical-operations/#Numeric-Comparisons https://docs.julialang.org/en/v1/manual/mathematical-operati... [2] https://docs.raku.org/language/operators.html https://docs.raku.org/language/operators.html

toastal 3y ago
Agda & PureScript support it, Haskell with the Unicode pragma too
lizmat 3y ago
Note that the Raku Programming Language has pure ASCII equivalents for all operators as well, for the Unicode challenged. E.g. ≠ vs !=, ≤ vs <=, ≥ vs >= etc. etc.
- sundarurfriend 3y ago
  Same with Julia too.
nottorp 3y ago
That's fun but how do I type them?
- chrismorgan 3y ago
  A Compose key is the best general-purpose way. For example: • ≥: Compose > = • ≠: Compose / = You can define your own sequences too, if you want. I like to type exactly what I mean, including curly quotes and dashes and narrow no-break spaces and emoji and so on, but often didn’t like the default mappings (if there were any). As an example, I use this for curly quotes (look at the keys’ locations on the keyboard to understand—it’s coherent): <Multi_key> <semicolon> <semicolon> : "‘" <Multi_key> <apostrophe> <apostrophe> : "’" <Multi_key> <colon> <colon> : "“" <Multi_key> <quotedbl> <quotedbl> : "”" (The only thing I can think of where I don’t normally type what I’d theoretically like to is hyphens, where I use ASCII’s HYPHEN-MINUS instead of the proper HYPHEN. I’ve never come up with a mapping I like—what with en dash, em dash, minus, &c.—and it’s also too common for fonts to lack a HYPHEN glyph.) When you’re used to this sort of thing, it comes completely naturally. Somewhat more information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose_key https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose_key

sundarurfriend 3y ago

Julia does this: help?> ≥ "≥" can be typed by \ge<tab> search: ≥ >=(x, y) ≥(x,y) Greater-than-or-equals comparison operator. Falls back to y <= x. Examples ≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡ julia> 'a' >= 'b' false julia> 7 ≥ 7 ≥ 3 true

RobotToaster 3y ago

#define ≥ >= You could even compile a bunch of them into a header file.

bombcar 3y ago

APL says hi. life ← {⊃1 ⍵ ∨.∧ 3 4 = +/ +⌿ ¯1 0 1 ∘.⊖ ¯1 0 1 ⌽¨ ⊂⍵}

layer8 3y ago

This is a problem insofar as when searching for “>=“ or “≥“ you will only match one of them, and you are prone to getting a mix of both in your codebase. Ligatures effectively create a non-canonical rendering, and then adding a non-canonical alternate encoding doesn’t really improve the situation. A proper way would arguably be for the programming language to only understand “≥“, and for editors to provide support for entering such characters (or the user can configure a system-wide Compose key or similar). IMO we should work on standardizing keyboard input for those symbols instead of de-standardizing code display via ligatures.