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For sure I take your point about seeing POST information. When I switched from Debian to OS X (10.0) I installed an app which gave me that POST info on boot. It

For sure I take your point about seeing POST information. When I switched from Debian to OS X (10.0) I installed an app which gave me that POST info on boot. It looked pretty cool. I was used to seeing it in Linux for years, and it make me happy to have it on OS X. > Apple has always chosen form over function. But this isn’t true, and there’s substantial evidence against it. Steve Jobs is famous for saying, “Design is not what it looks like and feels like, design is how it works.” Under this mantra they prioritized function over form for decades. Now, sure, they screwed up sometimes, e.g., the previous generation of laptops absolutely prioritized form. Jony Ive got all excited about making something thin and minimal, and ended up dramatically compromising obvious functions, like the very thin but very shitty keyboard. But that’s an outlier. Mostly their stuff is very high quality. Judge it by longevity and resale value, if nothing else. This “encouraging learned helplessness” you talk about is in fact the opposite. You clearly care about computers and how they work. Most people don’t. Most people want to treat them like cars — they should work all the time, and when they break they should be taken to professionals to fix. This is nice and predictable for most non-technical people. Then to compete well in that market, computer manufacturers need to make things which are durable and long-lasting, and with good support. Apple does exactly this. And if you’re still not buying it, consider that the primary computer for most people today is a mobile phone, and those things need minimal maintenance outside of accidental physical damage. The rest of maintenance is handled by software updates, where again Apple does better than anyone.

simonh 3y ago
Yep, they haven’t 100% every time got it right, but for Apple in the Jobs era form and function were the same thing, and for the most part they’ve kept to that vision. Just look at AirPods or the watch. Obviously we’ll never know, but I don't think Jobs would have tolerated the butterfly keyboard debacle anywhere near as long as it dragged on.
jjav 3y ago
> This “encouraging learned helplessness” you talk about is in fact the opposite. > and when they break they should be taken to professionals to fix That's precisely "learned helplessness". You can't do anything, take it to the professionals, is the lesson you're supposed to learn. Example of cars is apt. The owners manual of a car these days doesn't tell you anything useful, anything that needs works is just "take it to the dealer". Compare to car owner manuals of decades past which went into deep technical detail on maintenance, valve adjustments, etc.
- sonofhans 3y ago
  The analogy is apt, yes, and the reasons are the same. Cars decades ago were simple physical systems. I could take apart my 1980 Mercedes with one box worth of tools. A modern Mercedes can’t even be tuned without special software. Even more modern cars — EVs — are basically laptops with wheels. The old world is gone, and we’re never going back to it. It’s not learned helplessness for me to realize that I can’t debug the firmware of a modern car. Even if it were OSS, I’d still have to rely on the expertise of others to solve my problems. Do you know how to plant wheat? Butcher a cow? Refine iron? Is it “learned helplessness” that you can’t do these things yourself? You’re not an island :)
  - the_third_wave 3y ago
    > The old world is gone, and we’re never going back to it. For you it may be gone, for many others - myself included - it was and is and always will be. The key factor here is self-reliance, the desire and ability to take care of your own`environment. This is, no matter what "experts" and those who parrot them say, still possible even when confronted with modern equipment. Not with all modern equipment, mind you, but that is not a problem given the wide array of choices presented to us by the oft-lambasted capitalist economy - vote with your wallet and avoid user-hostile equipment.
  - jjav 3y ago
    > A modern Mercedes can’t even be tuned without special software. And these trends are a tragedy, for all kinds of products not just computers and cars. Sure, most people didn't care to repair their widget even in the 70s they just took it an applicable professional. Which is fine. But some people wanted for various reasons. Some of these people got so interested that it became their career and went on to great developments. Nearly every engineer can tell stories of tinkering with some products as a kid and it drove their career. A lot of that is lost when products are un-tinkerable. Think of the generations growing up today for whom a computer is a hermetically sealed device from apple where they can't do anything but consume, tightly within the guardrails apple enforces. That's not bringing up a generation of computer tinkerers.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
kgwxd 3y ago
> Then to compete well in that market, computer manufacturers need to make things which are durable and long-lasting, and with good support. Apple does exactly this. Hard disagree on this. Durable and long lasting has to be a joke. Can’t handle a short fall and planned obsolescence after 2 years. Good support is also very wrong. Replacing broken screens (poorly) and factory resting phones (because their own security police’s prevent the user from doing it themselves in the name of theft prevention) for excessive fees isn’t good support. They’re no better than any other device maker, they just have a huge theatrical mall presence that makes them look like they’re “different”.

simonh 3y ago

Yep, they haven’t 100% every time got it right, but for Apple in the Jobs era form and function were the same thing, and for the most part they’ve kept to that vision. Just look at AirPods or the watch. Obviously we’ll never know, but I don't think Jobs would have tolerated the butterfly keyboard debacle anywhere near as long as it dragged on.

jjav 3y ago

> This “encouraging learned helplessness” you talk about is in fact the opposite. > and when they break they should be taken to professionals to fix That's precisely "learned helplessness". You can't do anything, take it to the professionals, is the lesson you're supposed to learn. Example of cars is apt. The owners manual of a car these days doesn't tell you anything useful, anything that needs works is just "take it to the dealer". Compare to car owner manuals of decades past which went into deep technical detail on maintenance, valve adjustments, etc.

sonofhans 3y ago
The analogy is apt, yes, and the reasons are the same. Cars decades ago were simple physical systems. I could take apart my 1980 Mercedes with one box worth of tools. A modern Mercedes can’t even be tuned without special software. Even more modern cars — EVs — are basically laptops with wheels. The old world is gone, and we’re never going back to it. It’s not learned helplessness for me to realize that I can’t debug the firmware of a modern car. Even if it were OSS, I’d still have to rely on the expertise of others to solve my problems. Do you know how to plant wheat? Butcher a cow? Refine iron? Is it “learned helplessness” that you can’t do these things yourself? You’re not an island :)
- the_third_wave 3y ago
  > The old world is gone, and we’re never going back to it. For you it may be gone, for many others - myself included - it was and is and always will be. The key factor here is self-reliance, the desire and ability to take care of your own`environment. This is, no matter what "experts" and those who parrot them say, still possible even when confronted with modern equipment. Not with all modern equipment, mind you, but that is not a problem given the wide array of choices presented to us by the oft-lambasted capitalist economy - vote with your wallet and avoid user-hostile equipment.
- jjav 3y ago
  > A modern Mercedes can’t even be tuned without special software. And these trends are a tragedy, for all kinds of products not just computers and cars. Sure, most people didn't care to repair their widget even in the 70s they just took it an applicable professional. Which is fine. But some people wanted for various reasons. Some of these people got so interested that it became their career and went on to great developments. Nearly every engineer can tell stories of tinkering with some products as a kid and it drove their career. A lot of that is lost when products are un-tinkerable. Think of the generations growing up today for whom a computer is a hermetically sealed device from apple where they can't do anything but consume, tightly within the guardrails apple enforces. That's not bringing up a generation of computer tinkerers.
Dalewyn 3y ago

kgwxd 3y ago

> Then to compete well in that market, computer manufacturers need to make things which are durable and long-lasting, and with good support. Apple does exactly this. Hard disagree on this. Durable and long lasting has to be a joke. Can’t handle a short fall and planned obsolescence after 2 years. Good support is also very wrong. Replacing broken screens (poorly) and factory resting phones (because their own security police’s prevent the user from doing it themselves in the name of theft prevention) for excessive fees isn’t good support. They’re no better than any other device maker, they just have a huge theatrical mall presence that makes them look like they’re “different”.