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The US prison system is violent and brutal, which begets a high recidivism rate. In my opinion this is because American culture tends to confuse retribution for

by jolux 3y ago

The US prison system is violent and brutal, which begets a high recidivism rate. In my opinion this is because American culture tends to confuse retribution for justice but opinions vary I'm sure.

mc32 3y ago
In most countries the prison system is unpleasant, including the UK, Italy, Spain, Japan, Ukraine, Mexico, etc. In addition the justice/legal systems slightly favor the prosecution. Salvador was overrun with gang violence, a new government came in, rounded up the gangsters and crime has gone down. On balance the population of Salvador is better off.
- jolux 3y ago
  The problem with US prisons goes far beyond basic unpleasantness. Take it from the Department of Justice: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-files-lawsuit-against-state-alabama-unconstitutional-conditions-states https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-files-laws... "'The Department of Justice conducted a thorough investigation of Alabama’s prisons for men and determined that Alabama violated and is continuing to violate the Constitution because its prisons are riddled with prisoner-on-prisoner and guard-on-prisoner violence. The violations have led to homicides, rapes, and serious injuries.'" This is not a system that is going to successfully reintegrate people. We owe a basic level of humane treatment even to prisoners, if not for the sake of liberal values than for the pragmatic reason that violent people who are put in an environment which encourages further violence will remain violent people when they are released back into our society.
  - mc32 3y ago
    The same department of justice that continues to prosecute a case against Assange? I'm nonplussed. Boris Becker (UK), Amanda Knox (IT), speak to prison brutality (and those are well known international personages.) Ukraine: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/08/ukraine-four-years-on-and-still-no-justice-for-victims-of-enforced-disappearance/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/08/ukraine-four-... Mexico: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/mexicos-federal-prisons-a-five-star-hell/2135358 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/mexicos-federal-prisons-a-... Spain: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-77231-8_11 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-77231-8_... Brazil: https://www.americasquarterly.org/article/qa-why-is-prison-violence-so-bad-in-brazil/ https://www.americasquarterly.org/article/qa-why-is-prison-v... And in Paradise (I mean Cuba): https://democraticspaces.com/trending/2022/3/29/prisoners-defenders-the-use-of-torture-in-cuba-on-political-prisoners-is-systematic-and-widespread https://democraticspaces.com/trending/2022/3/29/prisoners-de... Etc...
    - jolux 3y ago
      I linked the DOJ and not the Equal Justice Initiative because I thought they would be less likely to be seen as partisan or politically motivated. But here’s EJI on the same issue: https://eji.org/issues/prison-conditions/ https://eji.org/issues/prison-conditions/ and Harvard Political Review making a similar argument to my top post (that US prisons don’t adequately rehabilitate): https://harvardpolitics.com/recidivism-american-progress/ https://harvardpolitics.com/recidivism-american-progress/ And since you linked Amnesty, here’s their report on solitary confinement at ADX Florence: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/07/usa-prisoners-held-extreme-solitary-confinement-breach-international-law/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/07/usa-prisoners... Ukraine, Mexico, and Brazil are nowhere near as highly developed as the US. Spain is definitely closer, but Spain doesn’t execute people like the US does. Of course problems with prisons exist elsewhere. What’s specifically appalling about the US is the juxtaposition of extreme wealth and relative freedom with widespread, institutionalized abuse and neglect of prisoners, not just to their detriment, but to the detriment of the US as a whole.
      - mc32 3y ago
        I agree that our justice and prison systems need a recalibration to one, focus on violent crime, aggravated sexual crime, property crime, and de-emphasis on personal vice correction while also trying to guide prisoners to a better path. At the same time, I wish to point out most other prison systems in the world are similar or worse and suspects before they become prisoners have fewer legal rights afforded them. That said, the catch-and-release as well as the watch-and-do-nothing approach we're seeing in some places are aggravating crime and they are not doing anyone any favors, the criminals or the victims.
        jolux 3y ago
        > At the same time, I wish to point out most other prison systems in the world are similar or worse This might be true but I do not think it’s true of most peer countries (Western Europe, Canada, etc). I do believe that US prisons are among the least humane of this group as well as the least effective at rehabilitation. Again, this is not to say that those other systems do not have problems, just that the severity of the worst abuses and the extent of abuse in general is worse here.
omginternets 3y ago
You could also argue that recidivists tend to aggregate in jail, so yeah, opinions will definitely vary.

by jolux 3y ago

The US prison system is violent and brutal, which begets a high recidivism rate. In my opinion this is because American culture tends to confuse retribution for justice but opinions vary I'm sure.

mc32 3y ago

In most countries the prison system is unpleasant, including the UK, Italy, Spain, Japan, Ukraine, Mexico, etc. In addition the justice/legal systems slightly favor the prosecution. Salvador was overrun with gang violence, a new government came in, rounded up the gangsters and crime has gone down. On balance the population of Salvador is better off.

jolux 3y ago
The problem with US prisons goes far beyond basic unpleasantness. Take it from the Department of Justice: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-files-lawsuit-against-state-alabama-unconstitutional-conditions-states https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-files-laws... "'The Department of Justice conducted a thorough investigation of Alabama’s prisons for men and determined that Alabama violated and is continuing to violate the Constitution because its prisons are riddled with prisoner-on-prisoner and guard-on-prisoner violence. The violations have led to homicides, rapes, and serious injuries.'" This is not a system that is going to successfully reintegrate people. We owe a basic level of humane treatment even to prisoners, if not for the sake of liberal values than for the pragmatic reason that violent people who are put in an environment which encourages further violence will remain violent people when they are released back into our society.
- mc32 3y ago
  The same department of justice that continues to prosecute a case against Assange? I'm nonplussed. Boris Becker (UK), Amanda Knox (IT), speak to prison brutality (and those are well known international personages.) Ukraine: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/08/ukraine-four-years-on-and-still-no-justice-for-victims-of-enforced-disappearance/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/08/ukraine-four-... Mexico: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/mexicos-federal-prisons-a-five-star-hell/2135358 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/mexicos-federal-prisons-a-... Spain: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-77231-8_11 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-77231-8_... Brazil: https://www.americasquarterly.org/article/qa-why-is-prison-violence-so-bad-in-brazil/ https://www.americasquarterly.org/article/qa-why-is-prison-v... And in Paradise (I mean Cuba): https://democraticspaces.com/trending/2022/3/29/prisoners-defenders-the-use-of-torture-in-cuba-on-political-prisoners-is-systematic-and-widespread https://democraticspaces.com/trending/2022/3/29/prisoners-de... Etc...
  - jolux 3y ago
    I linked the DOJ and not the Equal Justice Initiative because I thought they would be less likely to be seen as partisan or politically motivated. But here’s EJI on the same issue: https://eji.org/issues/prison-conditions/ https://eji.org/issues/prison-conditions/ and Harvard Political Review making a similar argument to my top post (that US prisons don’t adequately rehabilitate): https://harvardpolitics.com/recidivism-american-progress/ https://harvardpolitics.com/recidivism-american-progress/ And since you linked Amnesty, here’s their report on solitary confinement at ADX Florence: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/07/usa-prisoners-held-extreme-solitary-confinement-breach-international-law/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/07/usa-prisoners... Ukraine, Mexico, and Brazil are nowhere near as highly developed as the US. Spain is definitely closer, but Spain doesn’t execute people like the US does. Of course problems with prisons exist elsewhere. What’s specifically appalling about the US is the juxtaposition of extreme wealth and relative freedom with widespread, institutionalized abuse and neglect of prisoners, not just to their detriment, but to the detriment of the US as a whole.
    - mc32 3y ago
      I agree that our justice and prison systems need a recalibration to one, focus on violent crime, aggravated sexual crime, property crime, and de-emphasis on personal vice correction while also trying to guide prisoners to a better path. At the same time, I wish to point out most other prison systems in the world are similar or worse and suspects before they become prisoners have fewer legal rights afforded them. That said, the catch-and-release as well as the watch-and-do-nothing approach we're seeing in some places are aggravating crime and they are not doing anyone any favors, the criminals or the victims.
      - jolux 3y ago
        > At the same time, I wish to point out most other prison systems in the world are similar or worse This might be true but I do not think it’s true of most peer countries (Western Europe, Canada, etc). I do believe that US prisons are among the least humane of this group as well as the least effective at rehabilitation. Again, this is not to say that those other systems do not have problems, just that the severity of the worst abuses and the extent of abuse in general is worse here.

omginternets 3y ago

You could also argue that recidivists tend to aggregate in jail, so yeah, opinions will definitely vary.