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Their privacy policy is wild and every customer is opted into the connect services by default. Interior images, exterior images, facial geometry, voice recordi

Their privacy policy is wild and every customer is opted into the connect services by default. Interior images, exterior images, facial geometry, voice recordings, location/driving data, "multimedia screen data", https://www.toyota.com/privacyvts/ https://www.toyota.com/privacyvts/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230512182022/https://www.toyota.com/privacyvts/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230512182022/https://www.toyot...

short_sells_poo 3y ago
> Interior images, exterior images, facial geometry, voice recordings, This is an absolutely unbelievable level of privacy intrusion IMO. I 100% support very heavily fining this sort of behavior, otherwise it will continue to proliferate.
- Cardinal7167 3y ago
  It will never get fined because it’s how the people who legislate fines are making (and keeping) their money and control.
  - mulmen 3y ago
    That's not how democracy works. Apathy is toxic. Please stop hurting us.
    - LamaOfRuin 3y ago
      Cynicism is not apathy. If they were apathetic, they would have no reason to comment.
    - int_19h 3y ago
      The way "representative democracy" (in quotes because both words are a lie) works at scale of any large country is as follows: you elect people based on simplistic promises that they make, and if they win and you're lucky, they kinda sorta do something that's vaguely like half of what they promised. Your only recourse is waiting for N years to vote for someone else who will almost certainly do the same thing. Not only is this all by design, but in many countries, the "free mandate" - i.e. the notion that the politician can say A before the election and then do ~A after - is even legally codified. In theory, this is supposed to allow the elected representatives to apply their own judgment based on nuances of the moment instead of pandering to the mob. In practice, it means that your representative is free to pander to people other than those they "represent" while still claiming a public mandate based on the votes received.
      - smeej 3y ago
        Not only this, but most people don't actually like the vague promises of the candidate they voted for. They're just praying that one will be moderately less terrible than the alternative. There's never an option to say, "No, none of these power-hungry psychos should get to make this set of decisions on my behalf."
      - mulmen 3y ago
        This is a bad take. Representative democracy works and we have plenty of examples of that happening even within our lifetimes. Your negative outlook is a choice and it’s wrong. Do better. We elect representatives at every level of government. In a country of 335,000,000 people a slow moving central government is a feature. If you really want to make a difference pay attention to your city council.
        int_19h 3y ago
        My outlook is from experience. I used to be a believer in representative democracy, but I simply cannot reconcile that with observations anymore. Note, by the way, that I'm not claiming that changes don't happen in this system. What I'm saying is that changes happen when the ruling class is convinced it's time for them, not when the populace as a whole is - and no amount of voting changes that. The fewer people each representative represents, the closer it is to an actual democracy, which is why city councils etc generally work better (although they are still far from ideal and have the same fundamental problems I described). But the nature of modern politics weaves local issues into broader ones on higher levels, and what ought to be local politics increasingly becomes national.
        mulmen 3y ago
        I honestly can’t even follow this. So you agree democracy works but it’s bad for… reasons? Can you be more specific? You have “experience” but you can’t articulate it. Sounds like you’re just jaded. That’s not democracy’s fault.
        3y ago
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    EU DPA's may have something to say about this if EU data subjects data was leaked.
- plagiarist 3y ago
  We need stronger laws about protecting user data. Like HIPAA but for everything. Storing millions of hours of video of people driving and their GPS should be a liability. I did not consent to any of this, but I'm certainly on recordings for drivers who did, that should also be an enormous fine.
  - 93po 3y ago
    we need politicians that do literally anything other than serve capitalism at all costs
- version_five 3y ago
  Where would the support for fines come from? When government understands these issues at all, they only want more control and restriction. The only thing I can imagine legislators getting upset about is they the car manufacturers are not sharing all the info with government by default. Next steps will be mandating tracking, not fining for it.
  - LinuxBender 3y ago
    Where would the support for fines come from? Probably when a legislators private graphic videos with an escort or drug dealer or something more interesting gets leaked. Perhaps some government officials data is present in the leak as we speak. It might be harder to spot if not a personally owned vehicle or still cloud registered to a previous owner.
    - Mountain_Skies 3y ago
      That's how video rental records became private when Supreme Court justice nominee Robert Bork's records were leaked and suddenly everyone in Congress panicked that it could someday happen to them. Bork turned out to have mundane tastes in movies but obviously members of Congress were renting movies a bit more wild.
      - galangalalgol 3y ago
        Is the movie list still around? That might make for a fun watch list.
  - feanaro 3y ago
    Well, try not being so passive. Are you living in an unchangeable authoritarian system?
    - smeej 3y ago
      Yes? When was the last time people were satisfied with the candidates available to "represent" them and were doing anything other than choosing the "lesser of two evils" to try to keep it from getting worse?
- michaelmior 3y ago
  When you look at the specific uses, I think it's a bit less unbelievable. I think the important piece is that they should more clearly stipulate how the data is used and what controls are in place to protect it. Even more importantly, opt out by default if there's any chance of the data leaving your vehicle and a clear mechanism for wiping all collected data. > Your Facial Geometric Features will only be stored on your vehicle. > Vehicles equipped with Teammate use sensor and/or image data from the vehicle’s interior and exterior to evaluate the vehicle’s surroundings
- smeej 3y ago
  Voice recording without explicit consent of all recorded parties is illegal under wiretapping laws in my state, and my state is pretty aggressive about it. I wonder how that factors into this.
  - mixmastamyk 3y ago
    Regulators may not have realized. Maybe send an anonymous tip.
jeffbee 3y ago
All car shrink-wrap licenses that I have looked at are similar. That's why I think it is funny when people freak out about Android Automotive. The Android Automotive terms are much, much better for customer privacy. The EULA for my Honda says that Honda can and will share all available data with itself and third parties, named and unnamed, for any or no reason.
- sandworm101 3y ago
  Funny, I looked around and couldn't find an equivalent for Honda motorcycles. Perhaps Honda understands their customers better than we think. Honda seems perfectly willing to build tracking-free products when the customer base cares enough. I have never met any sportbike rider willing to share one iota of ongoing GPS data with anyone.
  - jeffbee 3y ago
    Well, the motorcycle community is overstocked with privacy lunatics, preppers, gun nuts and other extremists, so this makes sense. Also I can't think of any Honda motorcycle with a GPS aside from the Gold Wing, which stretches the definition of motorcycle in numerous ways. On the other hand every motorcyclist I ride with carries a Garmin inReach, which is the very definition of sharing your GPS with someone.
    - AceyMan 3y ago
      > privacy lunatics, preppers, gun nuts and other extremists [...] Being a prepper isn't extremist. (Yes, it's expensive, done right, but not necessarily extremist.) [disclaimer: I live in Los Angeles]
      - sandworm101 3y ago
        A true prepper wouldn't admit their location.
        3y ago
dylan604 3y ago
I've purchased a few Toyota models, with the first having the connect service being a 2014 model. The sales rep asked for my phone so they could download the app that works with their system. The manner in which it was asked was interesting to me in that they clearly had not had someone so much as flinch as to giving them their unlocked phone and access to an app store. Maybe I was the first person not a grandparent they had worked with, but they obviously were not handed my unlocked phone. Since it was my first car with a connected system, I tried it out but was very unhappy with it. Their GPS required you to use your phone to enter a location and provide GPS. The in car system was basically just a screen for the services your device provided. The next time I purchased a car, I never even connected a phone to it.
- tinco 3y ago
  That sounds perfect. How could a car system be better than just be a screen and interface for the functionality your phone provides? It's literally the dream. If it's a particularly cheap car I wouldn't even mind if it doesn't have a screen or interface, and just supplies an API to the phone and a holder for it. Either way would be a million times better than any car made between 2005 and 2015 has to offer.
  - tric 3y ago
    > How could a car system be better than just be a screen and interface for the functionality your phone provides? It's literally the dream. This is how Apple Carplay works. It just streams the phone to the display, and accepts input from the car's buttons. I think Android Auto does the same.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    The caveat being that it requires the use of their app to run the system. Using an app is exactly the thing that gives them access to so much personal data.
ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
> This Privacy Notice DOES NOT apply to: >[...] > Any Toyota vehicles equipped with Connected Services located outside of the continental United States, Alaska and Hawaii. Ah, so only Americans are getting shafted.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Americans probably have the fewest legal protections of their various markets.
jasmer 3y ago
This needs to be made illegal. If companies want to collect such personal data it should not be by default, and each clause should have to be independently validated by the customer including what data, how it's used, where stored, for how long, who it's shared with. Nobody will accept basically so that says something about the asymmetry here.
ren_engineer 3y ago
if you own a car from 2008 or newer the government essentially mandates it to be a privacy nightmare. If you care about privacy don't buy a modern car. Throw in the Vault 7 CIA leaks about how they explicitly had programs to research how they could hack modern cars remotely https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vault_7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vault_7 you have to wonder how many vehicle 0-days nation state actors have saved up for when they need them, even just displaying the ability would grind the country to a halt because people would be afraid to even drive
- matheusmoreira 3y ago
  Thanks!! I didn't know about these leaks.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ummonk 3y ago
The privacy policy looks really reasonable and mostly only collecting the data that it needs to provide the services. And the most cloud-based / privacy concerning stuff (e.g. external video capture, and usage-based auto insurance) is listed as opt-in.
- Springtime 3y ago
  I'm not sure the location data aspects are great but yeah, there is some discrepancy between what the parent post was claiming and the policy states: > Certain vehicles equipped with an interior, driver-facing camera [...] If you opt-in and link your user profile using the in-vehicle “Setup Face” process, the Face Identification feature may use your Facial Geometric Features and Profile Data... Your Facial Geometric Features will only be stored on your vehicle. > External Vehicle Video Capture. Owners of certain vehicles equipped with [...] may also opt-in to participate in External Vehicle Video Capture... > To use the App Suite, you must download the application and accept the End User License Agreement... We will use Voice Recordings to improve our responses and voice recognition. To facilitate functionality of your App Suite and linked third party services, your vehicle may share your Location Data and Voice Recordings transcriptions with your third party services... (Emphasis mine)
sufehmi 3y ago
Totally different than the one for their Europe market: https://www.toyota-europe.com/legal/privacy-policy https://www.toyota-europe.com/legal/privacy-policy US lawmakers : you suck.

short_sells_poo 3y ago

> Interior images, exterior images, facial geometry, voice recordings, This is an absolutely unbelievable level of privacy intrusion IMO. I 100% support very heavily fining this sort of behavior, otherwise it will continue to proliferate.

Cardinal7167 3y ago
It will never get fined because it’s how the people who legislate fines are making (and keeping) their money and control.
- mulmen 3y ago
  That's not how democracy works. Apathy is toxic. Please stop hurting us.
  - LamaOfRuin 3y ago
    Cynicism is not apathy. If they were apathetic, they would have no reason to comment.
  - int_19h 3y ago
    The way "representative democracy" (in quotes because both words are a lie) works at scale of any large country is as follows: you elect people based on simplistic promises that they make, and if they win and you're lucky, they kinda sorta do something that's vaguely like half of what they promised. Your only recourse is waiting for N years to vote for someone else who will almost certainly do the same thing. Not only is this all by design, but in many countries, the "free mandate" - i.e. the notion that the politician can say A before the election and then do ~A after - is even legally codified. In theory, this is supposed to allow the elected representatives to apply their own judgment based on nuances of the moment instead of pandering to the mob. In practice, it means that your representative is free to pander to people other than those they "represent" while still claiming a public mandate based on the votes received.
    - smeej 3y ago
      Not only this, but most people don't actually like the vague promises of the candidate they voted for. They're just praying that one will be moderately less terrible than the alternative. There's never an option to say, "No, none of these power-hungry psychos should get to make this set of decisions on my behalf."
    - mulmen 3y ago
      This is a bad take. Representative democracy works and we have plenty of examples of that happening even within our lifetimes. Your negative outlook is a choice and it’s wrong. Do better. We elect representatives at every level of government. In a country of 335,000,000 people a slow moving central government is a feature. If you really want to make a difference pay attention to your city council.
      - int_19h 3y ago
        My outlook is from experience. I used to be a believer in representative democracy, but I simply cannot reconcile that with observations anymore. Note, by the way, that I'm not claiming that changes don't happen in this system. What I'm saying is that changes happen when the ruling class is convinced it's time for them, not when the populace as a whole is - and no amount of voting changes that. The fewer people each representative represents, the closer it is to an actual democracy, which is why city councils etc generally work better (although they are still far from ideal and have the same fundamental problems I described). But the nature of modern politics weaves local issues into broader ones on higher levels, and what ought to be local politics increasingly becomes national.
        mulmen 3y ago
        I honestly can’t even follow this. So you agree democracy works but it’s bad for… reasons? Can you be more specific? You have “experience” but you can’t articulate it. Sounds like you’re just jaded. That’s not democracy’s fault.
        3y ago
- jacquesm 3y ago
  EU DPA's may have something to say about this if EU data subjects data was leaked.
plagiarist 3y ago
We need stronger laws about protecting user data. Like HIPAA but for everything. Storing millions of hours of video of people driving and their GPS should be a liability. I did not consent to any of this, but I'm certainly on recordings for drivers who did, that should also be an enormous fine.
- 93po 3y ago
  we need politicians that do literally anything other than serve capitalism at all costs
version_five 3y ago
Where would the support for fines come from? When government understands these issues at all, they only want more control and restriction. The only thing I can imagine legislators getting upset about is they the car manufacturers are not sharing all the info with government by default. Next steps will be mandating tracking, not fining for it.
- LinuxBender 3y ago
  Where would the support for fines come from? Probably when a legislators private graphic videos with an escort or drug dealer or something more interesting gets leaked. Perhaps some government officials data is present in the leak as we speak. It might be harder to spot if not a personally owned vehicle or still cloud registered to a previous owner.
  - Mountain_Skies 3y ago
    That's how video rental records became private when Supreme Court justice nominee Robert Bork's records were leaked and suddenly everyone in Congress panicked that it could someday happen to them. Bork turned out to have mundane tastes in movies but obviously members of Congress were renting movies a bit more wild.
    - galangalalgol 3y ago
      Is the movie list still around? That might make for a fun watch list.
- feanaro 3y ago
  Well, try not being so passive. Are you living in an unchangeable authoritarian system?
  - smeej 3y ago
    Yes? When was the last time people were satisfied with the candidates available to "represent" them and were doing anything other than choosing the "lesser of two evils" to try to keep it from getting worse?
michaelmior 3y ago
When you look at the specific uses, I think it's a bit less unbelievable. I think the important piece is that they should more clearly stipulate how the data is used and what controls are in place to protect it. Even more importantly, opt out by default if there's any chance of the data leaving your vehicle and a clear mechanism for wiping all collected data. > Your Facial Geometric Features will only be stored on your vehicle. > Vehicles equipped with Teammate use sensor and/or image data from the vehicle’s interior and exterior to evaluate the vehicle’s surroundings
smeej 3y ago
Voice recording without explicit consent of all recorded parties is illegal under wiretapping laws in my state, and my state is pretty aggressive about it. I wonder how that factors into this.
- mixmastamyk 3y ago
  Regulators may not have realized. Maybe send an anonymous tip.

jeffbee 3y ago

All car shrink-wrap licenses that I have looked at are similar. That's why I think it is funny when people freak out about Android Automotive. The Android Automotive terms are much, much better for customer privacy. The EULA for my Honda says that Honda can and will share all available data with itself and third parties, named and unnamed, for any or no reason.

sandworm101 3y ago
Funny, I looked around and couldn't find an equivalent for Honda motorcycles. Perhaps Honda understands their customers better than we think. Honda seems perfectly willing to build tracking-free products when the customer base cares enough. I have never met any sportbike rider willing to share one iota of ongoing GPS data with anyone.
- jeffbee 3y ago
  Well, the motorcycle community is overstocked with privacy lunatics, preppers, gun nuts and other extremists, so this makes sense. Also I can't think of any Honda motorcycle with a GPS aside from the Gold Wing, which stretches the definition of motorcycle in numerous ways. On the other hand every motorcyclist I ride with carries a Garmin inReach, which is the very definition of sharing your GPS with someone.
  - AceyMan 3y ago
    > privacy lunatics, preppers, gun nuts and other extremists [...] Being a prepper isn't extremist. (Yes, it's expensive, done right, but not necessarily extremist.) [disclaimer: I live in Los Angeles]
    - sandworm101 3y ago
      A true prepper wouldn't admit their location.
      - 3y ago

dylan604 3y ago

I've purchased a few Toyota models, with the first having the connect service being a 2014 model. The sales rep asked for my phone so they could download the app that works with their system. The manner in which it was asked was interesting to me in that they clearly had not had someone so much as flinch as to giving them their unlocked phone and access to an app store. Maybe I was the first person not a grandparent they had worked with, but they obviously were not handed my unlocked phone. Since it was my first car with a connected system, I tried it out but was very unhappy with it. Their GPS required you to use your phone to enter a location and provide GPS. The in car system was basically just a screen for the services your device provided. The next time I purchased a car, I never even connected a phone to it.

tinco 3y ago
That sounds perfect. How could a car system be better than just be a screen and interface for the functionality your phone provides? It's literally the dream. If it's a particularly cheap car I wouldn't even mind if it doesn't have a screen or interface, and just supplies an API to the phone and a holder for it. Either way would be a million times better than any car made between 2005 and 2015 has to offer.
- tric 3y ago
  > How could a car system be better than just be a screen and interface for the functionality your phone provides? It's literally the dream. This is how Apple Carplay works. It just streams the phone to the display, and accepts input from the car's buttons. I think Android Auto does the same.
- dylan604 3y ago
  The caveat being that it requires the use of their app to run the system. Using an app is exactly the thing that gives them access to so much personal data.

ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago

> This Privacy Notice DOES NOT apply to: >[...] > Any Toyota vehicles equipped with Connected Services located outside of the continental United States, Alaska and Hawaii. Ah, so only Americans are getting shafted.

JohnFen 3y ago
Americans probably have the fewest legal protections of their various markets.

jasmer 3y ago

This needs to be made illegal. If companies want to collect such personal data it should not be by default, and each clause should have to be independently validated by the customer including what data, how it's used, where stored, for how long, who it's shared with. Nobody will accept basically so that says something about the asymmetry here.

ren_engineer 3y ago

if you own a car from 2008 or newer the government essentially mandates it to be a privacy nightmare. If you care about privacy don't buy a modern car. Throw in the Vault 7 CIA leaks about how they explicitly had programs to research how they could hack modern cars remotely https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vault_7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vault_7 you have to wonder how many vehicle 0-days nation state actors have saved up for when they need them, even just displaying the ability would grind the country to a halt because people would be afraid to even drive

matheusmoreira 3y ago
Thanks!! I didn't know about these leaks.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ummonk 3y ago

The privacy policy looks really reasonable and mostly only collecting the data that it needs to provide the services. And the most cloud-based / privacy concerning stuff (e.g. external video capture, and usage-based auto insurance) is listed as opt-in.

Springtime 3y ago
I'm not sure the location data aspects are great but yeah, there is some discrepancy between what the parent post was claiming and the policy states: > Certain vehicles equipped with an interior, driver-facing camera [...] If you opt-in and link your user profile using the in-vehicle “Setup Face” process, the Face Identification feature may use your Facial Geometric Features and Profile Data... Your Facial Geometric Features will only be stored on your vehicle. > External Vehicle Video Capture. Owners of certain vehicles equipped with [...] may also opt-in to participate in External Vehicle Video Capture... > To use the App Suite, you must download the application and accept the End User License Agreement... We will use Voice Recordings to improve our responses and voice recognition. To facilitate functionality of your App Suite and linked third party services, your vehicle may share your Location Data and Voice Recordings transcriptions with your third party services... (Emphasis mine)

sufehmi 3y ago

Totally different than the one for their Europe market: https://www.toyota-europe.com/legal/privacy-policy https://www.toyota-europe.com/legal/privacy-policy US lawmakers : you suck.