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edit: I was replying to DarkShikari, so adjust accordingly I'd argue whether copying is a bad thing. Copying or getting others to do your work is what great bu

edit: I was replying to DarkShikari, so adjust accordingly I'd argue whether copying is a bad thing. Copying or getting others to do your work is what great businesspeople and managers do. The system of cheating you describe above might be actually creating a great stream of entrepreneurs/networkers. If they could channel that talent to pfoductive use, like getting 3d printers or robots in their hands, or selling through telephones, it could be a huge resource for everyone. On a related note, everyone disparages Nigerian scammers. Yet these are highly entrepreneurial individuals that western companies should be hiring as salespeople.

mcl 15y ago
There are very few times I've felt the absence of a downvote button for my profile on HN but this is one. We don't need 4-year professional courses to teach people who are yet to enter the workforce how to cheat. Plagiarism doesn't require boot camps for undergrads to start practicing it as a valued skill, it needs an attitude adjustment to stop them from feeling guilty. It takes very little time to find a source and then rip it off and put your own label on it. But for those who don't derive an odd sense of accomplishment out of it, a continuous barrage of peer pressure does the trick.
talmand 15y ago
Just wow. A great manager does not get others to do their work. They lead or, let's see what's another word I know, "manage" other people doing their own work assigned to them. The system of cheating described can only create a stream of entrepreneurs/networkers who will ultimately have to cheat to attempt to succeed but the real world doesn't support that in the long run. They cannot be a good resource if they don't know how to actually work. I agree, Nigerian scammers would make great salespeople for industries that specialize in stealing from people.
- marshallp 15y ago
  I think part of the problem is we in the programming/engineering communities have a high notion of doing things right/ethics etc. However, in the real world, where money changes hands and fortunes are made it's the cheaters who get ahead/make things happen. Do you think most successful politicians, used car dealers, industry titans are not cheaters. Did Bill Gates or Steve Jobs ever cheat? (yes, all the time). The question is, who do you want to hire as your salesperson when you're struggling and have to pay rent. Mr. Ethical (cs nerd) or Mr. Cutthroat (nigerian scammer/used car salesman)?
  - moonchrome 15y ago
    I agree that being unethical can give you an advantage over others in some cases, but ethics (or lack of) is not the issue here, it's the fact that these people are completely useless. Most of the formal education is pro forma anyway and won't give you enough knowledge to be useful in a production environment - if you choose to cheat at that level then you aren't Mr. Cutthroat you are Mr. Deadweight and your only hope of survival in any company is a dysfunctional corporate environment.
  - buu700 15y ago
    To be clear, it is indeed your stance that both Bill Gates and Steve Jobs lacked any sort of legitimate skills, talent, or work ethic?
    - unimpressive 15y ago
      While I can't speak for the author of that comment (And for what it's worth...) it's a well known fact that Steve Jobs had Wozniak do his job at Atari for him on multiple occasions. (Including the famous breakout incident. LINK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_jobs#Early_career https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_jobs#Early_career) I've read multiple times from material written about both of them that their skills were in management and vision, not necessarily code and electronics. Honestly though, to extrapolate no legitimate skills (Let alone talent or work ethic.) from that is a stretch at best.
  - talmand 15y ago
    Well, I would say based on various cultures around the world being ethical is the praised method while the cheater is despised. You are correct that many cheaters do get ahead in life but, on the other hand, many of them get caught and are punished accordingly. Just because some get away with it doesn't support the notion it should be an accepted form of work habit. And many of the people in the categories you mention are honest and are doing quite well thank you very much. Did Jobs and Gates ever cheat? I know that they did. How do I know? Because they got caught and often paid whatever price was deemed appropriate at the time. But that does not mean that both their entire careers is based around cheating, which you are implying. To answer your question; if it were my business I would choose the ethical salesperson over the scammer every time for various reasons. He's more unlikely to steal from me, he's more unlikely to steal from my customers, he's more unlikely to ruin my business, he's more unlikely to cause me to be sued, he's more unlikely to cause me to go to jail. If those answers aren't good enough for you, I wish you luck in the real world. By the way, I think you are being a bit dishonest yourself comparing a used car salesman with a Nigerian criminal. I think you are confusing being aggressive with being a criminal.
dasil003 15y ago
Of course copying can be good. Code reuse is a good principle. Generally we want people to most efficiently utilize the resources available. Failure to do so is even dubbed Not-Invented-Here syndrome. Ethics aside whatever you can use to get the job done faster is advantageous. The problem is that programming is not a cut and paste job. To me the difference between a good programmer and a mere coder is that the programmer has the confidence to solve any problem and debug any issue. Even if you are just doing maintenance work and not working on new features, you need to be able to synthesize and refine an increasingly subtle understanding of the system you are working on. People who don't understand this end when asked to debug something end up just poking at it until they get the output they want. They have no clue whether their "fix" will break 100 other things because they are not forming a proper mental model. I would like to believe that this is inherently obvious to any working programmer, but I can see how it's not if you are under the impression that original work is only done by a few super geniuses, and the vast majority of people in the field are just searching around for something to copy. I certainly have seen this mentality both online in forums, but also in my undergrad CS degree where there were a handful of students who spent extraordinary energy trying to find someone to copy and didn't ever appear to give a rat's ass about any of the material.

mcl 15y ago

There are very few times I've felt the absence of a downvote button for my profile on HN but this is one. We don't need 4-year professional courses to teach people who are yet to enter the workforce how to cheat. Plagiarism doesn't require boot camps for undergrads to start practicing it as a valued skill, it needs an attitude adjustment to stop them from feeling guilty. It takes very little time to find a source and then rip it off and put your own label on it. But for those who don't derive an odd sense of accomplishment out of it, a continuous barrage of peer pressure does the trick.

talmand 15y ago

Just wow. A great manager does not get others to do their work. They lead or, let's see what's another word I know, "manage" other people doing their own work assigned to them. The system of cheating described can only create a stream of entrepreneurs/networkers who will ultimately have to cheat to attempt to succeed but the real world doesn't support that in the long run. They cannot be a good resource if they don't know how to actually work. I agree, Nigerian scammers would make great salespeople for industries that specialize in stealing from people.

marshallp 15y ago
I think part of the problem is we in the programming/engineering communities have a high notion of doing things right/ethics etc. However, in the real world, where money changes hands and fortunes are made it's the cheaters who get ahead/make things happen. Do you think most successful politicians, used car dealers, industry titans are not cheaters. Did Bill Gates or Steve Jobs ever cheat? (yes, all the time). The question is, who do you want to hire as your salesperson when you're struggling and have to pay rent. Mr. Ethical (cs nerd) or Mr. Cutthroat (nigerian scammer/used car salesman)?
- moonchrome 15y ago
  I agree that being unethical can give you an advantage over others in some cases, but ethics (or lack of) is not the issue here, it's the fact that these people are completely useless. Most of the formal education is pro forma anyway and won't give you enough knowledge to be useful in a production environment - if you choose to cheat at that level then you aren't Mr. Cutthroat you are Mr. Deadweight and your only hope of survival in any company is a dysfunctional corporate environment.
- buu700 15y ago
  To be clear, it is indeed your stance that both Bill Gates and Steve Jobs lacked any sort of legitimate skills, talent, or work ethic?
  - unimpressive 15y ago
    While I can't speak for the author of that comment (And for what it's worth...) it's a well known fact that Steve Jobs had Wozniak do his job at Atari for him on multiple occasions. (Including the famous breakout incident. LINK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_jobs#Early_career https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_jobs#Early_career) I've read multiple times from material written about both of them that their skills were in management and vision, not necessarily code and electronics. Honestly though, to extrapolate no legitimate skills (Let alone talent or work ethic.) from that is a stretch at best.
- talmand 15y ago
  Well, I would say based on various cultures around the world being ethical is the praised method while the cheater is despised. You are correct that many cheaters do get ahead in life but, on the other hand, many of them get caught and are punished accordingly. Just because some get away with it doesn't support the notion it should be an accepted form of work habit. And many of the people in the categories you mention are honest and are doing quite well thank you very much. Did Jobs and Gates ever cheat? I know that they did. How do I know? Because they got caught and often paid whatever price was deemed appropriate at the time. But that does not mean that both their entire careers is based around cheating, which you are implying. To answer your question; if it were my business I would choose the ethical salesperson over the scammer every time for various reasons. He's more unlikely to steal from me, he's more unlikely to steal from my customers, he's more unlikely to ruin my business, he's more unlikely to cause me to be sued, he's more unlikely to cause me to go to jail. If those answers aren't good enough for you, I wish you luck in the real world. By the way, I think you are being a bit dishonest yourself comparing a used car salesman with a Nigerian criminal. I think you are confusing being aggressive with being a criminal.

dasil003 15y ago

Of course copying can be good. Code reuse is a good principle. Generally we want people to most efficiently utilize the resources available. Failure to do so is even dubbed Not-Invented-Here syndrome. Ethics aside whatever you can use to get the job done faster is advantageous. The problem is that programming is not a cut and paste job. To me the difference between a good programmer and a mere coder is that the programmer has the confidence to solve any problem and debug any issue. Even if you are just doing maintenance work and not working on new features, you need to be able to synthesize and refine an increasingly subtle understanding of the system you are working on. People who don't understand this end when asked to debug something end up just poking at it until they get the output they want. They have no clue whether their "fix" will break 100 other things because they are not forming a proper mental model. I would like to believe that this is inherently obvious to any working programmer, but I can see how it's not if you are under the impression that original work is only done by a few super geniuses, and the vast majority of people in the field are just searching around for something to copy. I certainly have seen this mentality both online in forums, but also in my undergrad CS degree where there were a handful of students who spent extraordinary energy trying to find someone to copy and didn't ever appear to give a rat's ass about any of the material.