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People who take ownership and initiative for the things they work on get quickly promoted. I can tell you from experience as a human being -- and having given

People who take ownership and initiative for the things they work on get quickly promoted. I can tell you from experience as a human being -- and having given many, many friends a shoulder to cry on over the years, in regard to this very issue: that this is of course what management always says in regard to how things work. But the reality on the ground (beneath the confident pronouncements, and fake glassdoor reviews) is often starkly different. And is ultimately what pushes people into the clock puncher mindset. If they don’t, there is usually some other issue Right, and it's always, always, always on the employee side -- is what you're basically saying.

kortilla 3y ago
>Right, and it's always, always, always on the employee side -- is what you're basically saying. No it’s not. Jumping to negative conclusions and engaging in bad faith definitely is a way to get passed over though. There are lots of reasons, both managerial issues and employee issues, for someone to get passed over despite having the right mindset. My point wasn’t that it’s a guaranteed path to getting promotions. My point is that “not giving a shit” is nearly a guaranteed path to being passed over.
- afwf1 3y ago
  > If they don’t, there is usually some other issue (difficultly to work with) explicitly holding them back. > There are lots of reasons, both managerial issues and employee issues, for someone to get passed over despite having the right mindset. You're contradicting yourself. Not surprising, lying is one way people get promoted and turn others into clock punchers.
  - kortilla 3y ago
    I’m not, you’re suffering from the inability to logically reason about what I’m saying because of your “us vs them” mentality. Managerial issues are “explicitly” holding someone back. I didn’t say the issues were with the employee. > Not surprising, lying is one way people get promoted Don’t be an asshole. That’s another “explicit” issue that will make it difficult for you to get promoted. To be clear, my point is that being a clock puncher is an extremely effective way to limit your own career. Giving a shit is not a guarantee to get promotions, but it is requisite baring other very unlikely circumstances.
therealdrag0 3y ago
What Kortilla said matches my experience at a few companies. But I wouldn’t be surprised if there are different/worse ecosystems out there. Also just working harder doesn’t guarantee anything, which some employees misunderstand—communicate with your manager! You need to work on the right things and understand leveling expectations and promo cadences, and of course your manager is hugely important.
- afwf1 3y ago
  "leveling expectations" are mostly pure nonsense, you should know that. People are promoted for visibility in the eyes of management and delivering the final product, but not real ownership of the actual work that goes into advocating for and building the correct solution (which management is often clueless about, since it involves details which may seem minute but are essential to producing real value).
  - kortilla 3y ago
    > but not real ownership of the actual work that goes into advocating for and building the correct solution What you think is the correct solution is often not the correct appropriation of engineering resources for the business. > which management is often clueless about It is your job as an engineer to communicate this to management. If you are not capable of doing do so, you are incompetent as an engineer. Being an engineer isn’t being paid to just build whatever you want. That’s how you end up with Juicero.
  - therealdrag0 3y ago
    I don’t doubt that can be the case. But I’ve been promoted multiple times with work in my package that was purely maintenance and scalability work. Maybe I got lucky having management who appreciates these things. I’ve also seen people rejected from promo because they only focused on building and not on other leveling expectations like broader impact, anticipating problems, etc.

kortilla 3y ago

>Right, and it's always, always, always on the employee side -- is what you're basically saying. No it’s not. Jumping to negative conclusions and engaging in bad faith definitely is a way to get passed over though. There are lots of reasons, both managerial issues and employee issues, for someone to get passed over despite having the right mindset. My point wasn’t that it’s a guaranteed path to getting promotions. My point is that “not giving a shit” is nearly a guaranteed path to being passed over.

afwf1 3y ago
> If they don’t, there is usually some other issue (difficultly to work with) explicitly holding them back. > There are lots of reasons, both managerial issues and employee issues, for someone to get passed over despite having the right mindset. You're contradicting yourself. Not surprising, lying is one way people get promoted and turn others into clock punchers.
- kortilla 3y ago
  I’m not, you’re suffering from the inability to logically reason about what I’m saying because of your “us vs them” mentality. Managerial issues are “explicitly” holding someone back. I didn’t say the issues were with the employee. > Not surprising, lying is one way people get promoted Don’t be an asshole. That’s another “explicit” issue that will make it difficult for you to get promoted. To be clear, my point is that being a clock puncher is an extremely effective way to limit your own career. Giving a shit is not a guarantee to get promotions, but it is requisite baring other very unlikely circumstances.

therealdrag0 3y ago

What Kortilla said matches my experience at a few companies. But I wouldn’t be surprised if there are different/worse ecosystems out there. Also just working harder doesn’t guarantee anything, which some employees misunderstand—communicate with your manager! You need to work on the right things and understand leveling expectations and promo cadences, and of course your manager is hugely important.

afwf1 3y ago
"leveling expectations" are mostly pure nonsense, you should know that. People are promoted for visibility in the eyes of management and delivering the final product, but not real ownership of the actual work that goes into advocating for and building the correct solution (which management is often clueless about, since it involves details which may seem minute but are essential to producing real value).
- kortilla 3y ago
  > but not real ownership of the actual work that goes into advocating for and building the correct solution What you think is the correct solution is often not the correct appropriation of engineering resources for the business. > which management is often clueless about It is your job as an engineer to communicate this to management. If you are not capable of doing do so, you are incompetent as an engineer. Being an engineer isn’t being paid to just build whatever you want. That’s how you end up with Juicero.
- therealdrag0 3y ago
  I don’t doubt that can be the case. But I’ve been promoted multiple times with work in my package that was purely maintenance and scalability work. Maybe I got lucky having management who appreciates these things. I’ve also seen people rejected from promo because they only focused on building and not on other leveling expectations like broader impact, anticipating problems, etc.