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Whatever biodiversity (and therefore whatever resilience) was lost by the destruction of Europe's forests is gone forever. There are important species in the A

Whatever biodiversity (and therefore whatever resilience) was lost by the destruction of Europe's forests is gone forever. There are important species in the Amazon that can still be saved.

renewiltord 4y ago
That's fair. Europe should therefore pay Earth Reparations to those who have the opportunity to preserve the Earth. While Europe cannot afford to make good, she can try to hit the market clearing price to keep the Amazon unperturbed. This will likely be a debt never successfully paid, but sufficient hundreds of billions every year will likely work. What we need is a Green Treaty of Versailles.
- __MatrixMan__ 4y ago
  Materially, helping is helping whatever the reason. But rhetoric matters. You're going to get a lot more participation if you're trying to make the world a liveable place for the children being born right now, and a lot less participation if you're trying to get people to pay off a debt taken out by their ancestors. Thinking in terms of money and debt is what got us into this situation. I'm doubtful that it will get us out of it. In fact, turning our backs on the logic of the market is probably part of the fix. We need a jubilee so that the people made powerful by causing these problems aren't powerful anymore.
  - renewiltord 3y ago
    A jubilee would only help those who caused these problems since they've reaped the rewards. I, too, would like all my debts forgiven while I retain the profits. Typical of discourse today is to let off the societies that industrialized first with no complaint while simultaneously moralizing against those who are industrializing now. Europe hoards nuclear technology and won't share it with the developing world. Europe burns oil and gas and coal in vast quantities to live. All while Europe says that all past carbon emissions must be considered forgiven debt and all present carbon emissions must be considered sin. The developing world will do as Europe did to get to Europe's standard of living. The developing world will not listen to the moralizing of Europeans who won't do their part. And Europeans can clutch their pearls about the Amazon, but the people who live there will raze it for industry just as the Europeans did. And it will be right.
    - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
      > A jubilee would only help those who caused these problems since they've reaped the rewards Maybe jubilee wasn't the right word. I'm saying we stop accepting money for money's sake. So the reaped rewards would no longer be valuable. Instead we need a system backed by something auditable, so that when a stranger offers it to you, you can investigate and decide if you actually value the activity that created it. Thus creating an incentive to work on projects that are more solution than problem.

Whatever biodiversity (and therefore whatever resilience) was lost by the destruction of Europe's forests is gone forever. There are important species in the Amazon that can still be saved.

renewiltord 4y ago

That's fair. Europe should therefore pay Earth Reparations to those who have the opportunity to preserve the Earth. While Europe cannot afford to make good, she can try to hit the market clearing price to keep the Amazon unperturbed. This will likely be a debt never successfully paid, but sufficient hundreds of billions every year will likely work. What we need is a Green Treaty of Versailles.

__MatrixMan__ 4y ago
Materially, helping is helping whatever the reason. But rhetoric matters. You're going to get a lot more participation if you're trying to make the world a liveable place for the children being born right now, and a lot less participation if you're trying to get people to pay off a debt taken out by their ancestors. Thinking in terms of money and debt is what got us into this situation. I'm doubtful that it will get us out of it. In fact, turning our backs on the logic of the market is probably part of the fix. We need a jubilee so that the people made powerful by causing these problems aren't powerful anymore.
- renewiltord 3y ago
  A jubilee would only help those who caused these problems since they've reaped the rewards. I, too, would like all my debts forgiven while I retain the profits. Typical of discourse today is to let off the societies that industrialized first with no complaint while simultaneously moralizing against those who are industrializing now. Europe hoards nuclear technology and won't share it with the developing world. Europe burns oil and gas and coal in vast quantities to live. All while Europe says that all past carbon emissions must be considered forgiven debt and all present carbon emissions must be considered sin. The developing world will do as Europe did to get to Europe's standard of living. The developing world will not listen to the moralizing of Europeans who won't do their part. And Europeans can clutch their pearls about the Amazon, but the people who live there will raze it for industry just as the Europeans did. And it will be right.
  - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
    > A jubilee would only help those who caused these problems since they've reaped the rewards Maybe jubilee wasn't the right word. I'm saying we stop accepting money for money's sake. So the reaped rewards would no longer be valuable. Instead we need a system backed by something auditable, so that when a stranger offers it to you, you can investigate and decide if you actually value the activity that created it. Thus creating an incentive to work on projects that are more solution than problem.