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I think that if everyone gave up air travel, individual automobile transport, and meat and dairy and lived in a max 110m2 apartment you could say that. But it s

I think that if everyone gave up air travel, individual automobile transport, and meat and dairy and lived in a max 110m2 apartment you could say that. But it seems that there are a lot of people who simply don't care.

camel-cdr 3y ago
I wonder why people down vote this Edit: it looks like the ratio has shifted now
- DANmode 3y ago
  Maybe they're in Nebraska.
- bee_rider 3y ago
  Because preventing climate change is a collective action problem, and the comment suggests a solution that would require every individual to spontaneously make the right decision.
jebarker 3y ago
"a lot of people who simply don't care" is not the same as "no one seems to care". Furthermore, the challenge isn't in figuring out the individual changes you list it's figuring out how to convince everyone to adopt them.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
bee_rider 3y ago
I already live in a tiny apartment and take the bus to work, so clearly my individual contribution didn’t fix the problem. I don’t know how to make everyone do that, so, I still don’t know what to do.
- myshpa 3y ago
  Be the change you wish to see in the world. - somebody
  - dmbche 3y ago
    Gandhi I think
    - bee_rider 3y ago
      I looked it up. Actually it was by someone I’ve never heard of, but Ghandi said something similar (just way more long-winded). Ghandi also started a massive political movement so I think he did a lot of doing in between his being.
- timthelion 3y ago
  I am actually in the same boat. I have limited myself to the things I list, yet the problem is still there. And The human population doubles every 50 or so years even after I had a vasectomy [1], and yet my emissions aren't going to cut in two in that time. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/world-population-growth https://ourworldindata.org/world-population-growth
- dmbche 3y ago
  Yeah - individual changes will never change anything - I think the discussion has been poisonned, and we are blind to the actual solutions, which all seem unthinkable even though they are self evident
  - gs17 3y ago
    > Yeah - individual changes will never change anything - I think the discussion has been poisonned The idea that individuals have no responsibility or power is part of how it has been poisoned. I've known people who genuinely would say something like "did you know a half dozen companies put out the majority of emissions? so we don't need to consume less or differently, everything is those companies' fault".
bluefirebrand 3y ago
I would rather humanity have a bloody war that wipes out 90% of us than live the miserable life you have described. My life does not fit within walking distance of a 110m2 box.
- bee_rider 3y ago
  You would rather accept a 90% chance of death for yourself and everyone you love, than live in a small apartment?
  - gs17 3y ago
    Not even a small apartment, I share a ~110 sq m apartment now (with a sizable chunk wasted for stairs) and it's more than enough.
- truckerbill 3y ago
  Stop and think about that for just a second... (As an aside, it seems a lot of people unwittingly are making this choice which I find both curious and very depressing)
  - freilanzer 3y ago
    [flagged]
- timthelion 3y ago
  That's weird. I grew up in a big house and my parents had plenty of cars, meat and travel, but I wasn't particularly happy. I'm happier now in my small apartment. I don't really understand how a big house will make you happy. Really, doing electronics is more fun in a hacker space than at home, and you can always go to a park.
  - bluefirebrand 3y ago
    That's nice that a very spartan lifestyle is good for you. The house doesn't make me happy. Not hearing my neighbors music blasting through the floor at 2am makes me happy. Not hearing my neighbors screaming at each other every day makes me happy Being able to paint my walls any color I want makes me happy. Having a plot of land I can dig up and plant stuff on or build a workshop on makes me happy. Having a place that is my own that I can do basically anything I want with makes me happy. Renting apartments is shit. Even condos, which you own on paper but cannot just do whatever you like with, sucks. Hacker spaces don't exist everywhere by the way, and the ones I have been to sucked.
rektide 3y ago
Peter Singer's Famine Affluence & Morality (1972) argued similarly, that we allow human suffering & don't do anything, even though we could. And he said that makes us provably evil. Recent submission, a video on Singer's paper: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35718342 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35718342 https://youtu.be/KVl5kMXz1vA https://youtu.be/KVl5kMXz1vA
0xffff2 3y ago
Just so we're clear, realistically "everyone gave up air travel" means the government shutting down airlines, not people voluntarily not buying plane tickets. I would vote in favor of massively limiting airline travel across the board, but until that happens I'm not going to make my life worse for absolutely no benefit.

camel-cdr 3y ago

I wonder why people down vote this Edit: it looks like the ratio has shifted now

DANmode 3y ago
Maybe they're in Nebraska.
bee_rider 3y ago
Because preventing climate change is a collective action problem, and the comment suggests a solution that would require every individual to spontaneously make the right decision.

jebarker 3y ago

"a lot of people who simply don't care" is not the same as "no one seems to care". Furthermore, the challenge isn't in figuring out the individual changes you list it's figuring out how to convince everyone to adopt them.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

bee_rider 3y ago

I already live in a tiny apartment and take the bus to work, so clearly my individual contribution didn’t fix the problem. I don’t know how to make everyone do that, so, I still don’t know what to do.

myshpa 3y ago
Be the change you wish to see in the world. - somebody
- dmbche 3y ago
  Gandhi I think
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    I looked it up. Actually it was by someone I’ve never heard of, but Ghandi said something similar (just way more long-winded). Ghandi also started a massive political movement so I think he did a lot of doing in between his being.
timthelion 3y ago
I am actually in the same boat. I have limited myself to the things I list, yet the problem is still there. And The human population doubles every 50 or so years even after I had a vasectomy [1], and yet my emissions aren't going to cut in two in that time. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/world-population-growth https://ourworldindata.org/world-population-growth
dmbche 3y ago
Yeah - individual changes will never change anything - I think the discussion has been poisonned, and we are blind to the actual solutions, which all seem unthinkable even though they are self evident
- gs17 3y ago
  > Yeah - individual changes will never change anything - I think the discussion has been poisonned The idea that individuals have no responsibility or power is part of how it has been poisoned. I've known people who genuinely would say something like "did you know a half dozen companies put out the majority of emissions? so we don't need to consume less or differently, everything is those companies' fault".

bluefirebrand 3y ago

I would rather humanity have a bloody war that wipes out 90% of us than live the miserable life you have described. My life does not fit within walking distance of a 110m2 box.

bee_rider 3y ago
You would rather accept a 90% chance of death for yourself and everyone you love, than live in a small apartment?
- gs17 3y ago
  Not even a small apartment, I share a ~110 sq m apartment now (with a sizable chunk wasted for stairs) and it's more than enough.
truckerbill 3y ago
Stop and think about that for just a second... (As an aside, it seems a lot of people unwittingly are making this choice which I find both curious and very depressing)
- freilanzer 3y ago
  [flagged]
timthelion 3y ago
That's weird. I grew up in a big house and my parents had plenty of cars, meat and travel, but I wasn't particularly happy. I'm happier now in my small apartment. I don't really understand how a big house will make you happy. Really, doing electronics is more fun in a hacker space than at home, and you can always go to a park.
- bluefirebrand 3y ago
  That's nice that a very spartan lifestyle is good for you. The house doesn't make me happy. Not hearing my neighbors music blasting through the floor at 2am makes me happy. Not hearing my neighbors screaming at each other every day makes me happy Being able to paint my walls any color I want makes me happy. Having a plot of land I can dig up and plant stuff on or build a workshop on makes me happy. Having a place that is my own that I can do basically anything I want with makes me happy. Renting apartments is shit. Even condos, which you own on paper but cannot just do whatever you like with, sucks. Hacker spaces don't exist everywhere by the way, and the ones I have been to sucked.

rektide 3y ago

Peter Singer's Famine Affluence & Morality (1972) argued similarly, that we allow human suffering & don't do anything, even though we could. And he said that makes us provably evil. Recent submission, a video on Singer's paper: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35718342 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35718342 https://youtu.be/KVl5kMXz1vA https://youtu.be/KVl5kMXz1vA

0xffff2 3y ago

Just so we're clear, realistically "everyone gave up air travel" means the government shutting down airlines, not people voluntarily not buying plane tickets. I would vote in favor of massively limiting airline travel across the board, but until that happens I'm not going to make my life worse for absolutely no benefit.