5 ms·

even after reading the article this lawsuit makes no sense. inherently a car that can easily be repaired can easily be stolen. the implication is that Baltimor

even after reading the article this lawsuit makes no sense. inherently a car that can easily be repaired can easily be stolen. the implication is that Baltimore does not want cars that can easily be modified so they cannot easily be stolen. troubling to say the least. then again, baltimore isn't exactly the pinnacle of governance. take the iphone for example, which are notoriously difficult to use if stolen. the result has been people tend not to steal iphones as much (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-06-19/how-an-iphone-update-lowered-new-york-citys-crime-rate#xj4y7vzkg https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-06-19/how-an-ip...). however the result is you have less control of your device. is this a worthy tradeoff?

gjsman-1000 3y ago
Right? Why don’t we all have our catalytic converters digitally paired with the Engine Control Unit iPhone-style? Is it the manufacturer’s fault for not doing that? Heck, just like an iPhone, let’s have all parts on a car from the headlamps to the door handles to the mirrors digitally paired together. That would stop theft, and any car maker who doesn’t do it is encouraging theft.
- shagie 3y ago
  That doesn't quite follow as the catalytic converter is melted down for its metals rather than used as is. As to "all the parts on a car paired" - there is VIN etching. https://www.allstate.com/resources/allstate/attachments/tools-and-resources/vin-etching-fact-sheet.pdf https://www.allstate.com/resources/allstate/attachments/tool... The audio system has some semblance of paring. Though with he KIA, this is more often dealing with use (e.g. joy riding) of the car rather than reselling it.
  - LgWoodenBadger 3y ago
    Melted down? More likely they're sold to questionable "remanufacturers"
    - shagie 3y ago
      Justice Department announces takedown of catalytic converter theft ring - https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-takedown-nationwide-catalytic-converter-theft-ring https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-... // https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33444851 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33444851 (405 points // 468 comments) > Federal, state, and local law enforcement partners from across the United States executed a nationwide, coordinated takedown today of leaders and associates of a national network of thieves, dealers, and processors for their roles in conspiracies involving stolen catalytic converters sold to a metal refinery for tens of millions of dollars. > ... > They knowingly purchased stolen catalytic converters and, through a “de-canning” process, extracted the precious metal powders from the catalytic core. DG Auto sold the precious metal powders it processed from California and elsewhere to a metal refinery for over $545 million. Ok, not quite melted down, but reduced to rather base components. They are not reused in the same form.
harimau777 3y ago
I don't think that's necessarily the case. My understanding is that the part that they omitted was some sort of chip. Soldering in a new chip is something that could be easily done by someone making repairs but which would be difficult for someone to do during a theft.
ramraj07 3y ago
Are you saying Hyundai and Kia did this so the car is more easily modifiable? Are they known for making more repairable cars? Are they framework laptop of the car world? Or merely cheap carmakers who found the wrong corner to cut and save costs?
- endisneigh 3y ago
  what I'm saying is that if you imagine the most reparable car in the world, it would inherently be easy to steal and thus subject to the same lawsuit being presented to Kia and Hyundai.
  - yccs27 3y ago
    There is no relationship. I can take apart my front door including the lock without a problem, and it is still secure. Security is a property of the locked state, repairability a property of the unlocked state.
    - endisneigh 3y ago
      no it is not. the fact that you can take apart your front door makes it inherently easier to get into your house vs. a door that could not be disassembled.
      - l33t233372 3y ago
        I’m wondering if you can explicitly say what about including an immobilizer in the north American market inherently makes those vehicles less repairable than their immobilizer-equipped counterparts in other markets.
taffronaut 3y ago
I don't follow the reasoning that inherently easily repairable cars are easily stolen. Cars have shipped for decades with steering and in some cases transmission locks. These required physical key and programmed fob to be present in order to start and drive. Security was down to the quality of the engineering of those components. I don't see how it hampered modification to or ability to repair the rest of the car.
- endisneigh 3y ago
  you disagree that a car that's more reparable is more easily stolen? imagine a car with screws on the door to be swapped, and another car without them. you don't think the car with the screws would be easier to steal?
  - krisoft 3y ago
    > you disagree that a car that's more reparable is more easily stolen? Yes,I do. > imagine a car with screws on the door to be swapped, and another car without them. you don't think the car with the screws would be easier to steal? I imagined that. Every car door I have ever interacted with had the screws on the hinges such that you could only access them with the door open. You could swap all of them. This is not a particularly good example you choose I am afraid. You can design cars which are hard to repair and easy to steal, or one which is easy to repair and hard to steal. Thing is nobody is asking Kia to do something unprecedented. All people are asking to be about as safe from stealing as cars from other manufacturers are.
    - endisneigh 3y ago
      I don't know what to tell ya then. clearly and obviously, a door that can be taken off, and thus is more easily repaired, could be stolen easier than one that is not (e.g. door is welded after being attached to the car). if you disagree with that then we have to agree to disagree. > Thing is nobody is asking Kia to do something unprecedented. All people are asking to be about as safe from stealing as cars from other manufacturers are. how about you just not buy kia. they'll figure it out. why people want to involve the government in everything is just beyond me.
bastawhiz 3y ago
An easily repairable safe is not an insecure safe. The security of the safe shouldn't be able to be easily compromised from the outside of the safe. Just because I can repair and replace parts doesn't make it insecure.
- endisneigh 3y ago
  a safe that could be repaired from in and out of the safe would be even more reparable than one that could only be repaired from inside. thus, the most reparable safe would be also one that could be compromised. there inherently is a tradeoff between security and modifiability by end users.
  - bastawhiz 3y ago
    A safe that can be repaired from the outside isn't a safe. You're not even trying to engage in a reasonable conversation.
    - endisneigh 3y ago
      there is nothing about a safe that says it cannot be repaired from the outside (though it would certainly be a bad safe). regardless, my example isn't limited to safes to begin with.

gjsman-1000 3y ago

Right? Why don’t we all have our catalytic converters digitally paired with the Engine Control Unit iPhone-style? Is it the manufacturer’s fault for not doing that? Heck, just like an iPhone, let’s have all parts on a car from the headlamps to the door handles to the mirrors digitally paired together. That would stop theft, and any car maker who doesn’t do it is encouraging theft.

shagie 3y ago
That doesn't quite follow as the catalytic converter is melted down for its metals rather than used as is. As to "all the parts on a car paired" - there is VIN etching. https://www.allstate.com/resources/allstate/attachments/tools-and-resources/vin-etching-fact-sheet.pdf https://www.allstate.com/resources/allstate/attachments/tool... The audio system has some semblance of paring. Though with he KIA, this is more often dealing with use (e.g. joy riding) of the car rather than reselling it.
- LgWoodenBadger 3y ago
  Melted down? More likely they're sold to questionable "remanufacturers"
  - shagie 3y ago
    Justice Department announces takedown of catalytic converter theft ring - https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-takedown-nationwide-catalytic-converter-theft-ring https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-... // https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33444851 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33444851 (405 points // 468 comments) > Federal, state, and local law enforcement partners from across the United States executed a nationwide, coordinated takedown today of leaders and associates of a national network of thieves, dealers, and processors for their roles in conspiracies involving stolen catalytic converters sold to a metal refinery for tens of millions of dollars. > ... > They knowingly purchased stolen catalytic converters and, through a “de-canning” process, extracted the precious metal powders from the catalytic core. DG Auto sold the precious metal powders it processed from California and elsewhere to a metal refinery for over $545 million. Ok, not quite melted down, but reduced to rather base components. They are not reused in the same form.

harimau777 3y ago

I don't think that's necessarily the case. My understanding is that the part that they omitted was some sort of chip. Soldering in a new chip is something that could be easily done by someone making repairs but which would be difficult for someone to do during a theft.

ramraj07 3y ago

Are you saying Hyundai and Kia did this so the car is more easily modifiable? Are they known for making more repairable cars? Are they framework laptop of the car world? Or merely cheap carmakers who found the wrong corner to cut and save costs?

endisneigh 3y ago
what I'm saying is that if you imagine the most reparable car in the world, it would inherently be easy to steal and thus subject to the same lawsuit being presented to Kia and Hyundai.
- yccs27 3y ago
  There is no relationship. I can take apart my front door including the lock without a problem, and it is still secure. Security is a property of the locked state, repairability a property of the unlocked state.
  - endisneigh 3y ago
    no it is not. the fact that you can take apart your front door makes it inherently easier to get into your house vs. a door that could not be disassembled.
    - l33t233372 3y ago
      I’m wondering if you can explicitly say what about including an immobilizer in the north American market inherently makes those vehicles less repairable than their immobilizer-equipped counterparts in other markets.

taffronaut 3y ago

I don't follow the reasoning that inherently easily repairable cars are easily stolen. Cars have shipped for decades with steering and in some cases transmission locks. These required physical key and programmed fob to be present in order to start and drive. Security was down to the quality of the engineering of those components. I don't see how it hampered modification to or ability to repair the rest of the car.

endisneigh 3y ago
you disagree that a car that's more reparable is more easily stolen? imagine a car with screws on the door to be swapped, and another car without them. you don't think the car with the screws would be easier to steal?
- krisoft 3y ago
  > you disagree that a car that's more reparable is more easily stolen? Yes,I do. > imagine a car with screws on the door to be swapped, and another car without them. you don't think the car with the screws would be easier to steal? I imagined that. Every car door I have ever interacted with had the screws on the hinges such that you could only access them with the door open. You could swap all of them. This is not a particularly good example you choose I am afraid. You can design cars which are hard to repair and easy to steal, or one which is easy to repair and hard to steal. Thing is nobody is asking Kia to do something unprecedented. All people are asking to be about as safe from stealing as cars from other manufacturers are.
  - endisneigh 3y ago
    I don't know what to tell ya then. clearly and obviously, a door that can be taken off, and thus is more easily repaired, could be stolen easier than one that is not (e.g. door is welded after being attached to the car). if you disagree with that then we have to agree to disagree. > Thing is nobody is asking Kia to do something unprecedented. All people are asking to be about as safe from stealing as cars from other manufacturers are. how about you just not buy kia. they'll figure it out. why people want to involve the government in everything is just beyond me.

bastawhiz 3y ago

An easily repairable safe is not an insecure safe. The security of the safe shouldn't be able to be easily compromised from the outside of the safe. Just because I can repair and replace parts doesn't make it insecure.

endisneigh 3y ago
a safe that could be repaired from in and out of the safe would be even more reparable than one that could only be repaired from inside. thus, the most reparable safe would be also one that could be compromised. there inherently is a tradeoff between security and modifiability by end users.
- bastawhiz 3y ago
  A safe that can be repaired from the outside isn't a safe. You're not even trying to engage in a reasonable conversation.
  - endisneigh 3y ago
    there is nothing about a safe that says it cannot be repaired from the outside (though it would certainly be a bad safe). regardless, my example isn't limited to safes to begin with.