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How is it Hyundai's fault that people steal cars? It's acting as if theives are some force of nature that we can't control or something. You prevent theft by pu
by alexb_ 3y ago
How is it Hyundai's fault that people steal cars? It's acting as if theives are some force of nature that we can't control or something. You prevent theft by putting theives in jail. It's not complicated.
- hardware2win 3y agoConsider reading the article The concerns are valid >Certain Kia or Hyundai models can be stolen using a screwdriver and a USB charging cord. >Cleveland, St. Louis and Seattle are among the other cities that started suing the the car companies earlier this year. Baltimore’s lawsuit says the companies “failed to keep up with industry standards,” and claim it was a result of business decisions made to reduce costs and boost profits “notwithstanding decades of academic literature and research supporting the deterrent effects” of anti-theft technology. >Car thefts in the city have nearly doubled this year compared to the same time last year, part of a nationwide trend after videos showing how to easily steal the vehicles racked up millions of views on TikTok.
- wslh 3y agoThe article sounds like if you leave the door open you should assume anybody will enter and steal you. This is reversing the victim to the victimary. In a sexist way would be similar that you are being raped because you wear some specific clothes. Or you are hacked because you don't apply a patch.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- hardware2win 3y agoLets do not jump into emotional arguments Car makers should make their cars as hard as reasonably possible to steal. If dumb ass tenager can do that, the it is a mess
- themaninthedark 3y agoBut that is exactly where this line of reasoning will take you. If you don't take "reasonable precautions" then you are liable. I will also note that I often see comments here talking about living in SF and how they leave their car unlocked or windows down to limit the damage from thieves smashing the windows to get inside. So with this "reasonable precautions" line, everyone who does this should be liable for promoting theft.
- wslh 3y agoIn my country, thieves removes your wheels, break your window, etc. Any electronic or hacker approach is very advanced.
- ufish235 3y agoIt's not an appropriate analogy because Kia is not the victim. They are responsible for securing their vehicles appropriately.
- tatrajim 3y agoIf a woman doesn't wear a titanium chastity belt, she can be deemed negligent.
- arein3 3y agoAnd if LPL can pick up the belt lock then it's fair game. Sounds stupid, like the way to blame hyundai or kia for existence of scum people like thieves.
- arein3 3y agoPeople downvoting are so used to scummy people that they think it's the norm. In other societies crime is not normal, and "teenagers" have two braincells to understand that a thief is a repugnant person and that the consequences are not worth it.
- wslh 3y agoNice experiment here in HN, it gives us information about a specific bias.
- op00to 3y agoI have seen teenagers break car windows in London, Brussels, Montreal, Newark NJ... I haven't been to Asia, but I guarantee teenagers do stupid shit there too. I'm not sure why you think teenagers have fully formed brains in other localities but somehow not in Baltimore.
- klodolph 3y agoAre you reading the same article? The city is going after Kia, not the car owners. Kia is making defective cars; people are buying them; the city is going after Kia.
- jjk166 3y agoYeah, suing clothing manufacturers because people wearing them were raped is not any better. The city has an obligation to prevent crime, car manufacturers do not.
- prottog 3y agoIf anything, the city of Baltimore should sue itself for failing to prevent crime. It would make about as much sense.
- ericmcer 3y agoAre the spikes of car thefts similar across all cities? Every large city has Kia and Hyundais, you would think this would be a nationwide phenomenon.
- harimau777 3y agoI know that they are also common in Milwaukee.
- chucksta 3y agoUh it is.. https://www.yahoo.com/news/nationwide-rise-kia-hyundai-car-223154418.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/nationwide-rise-kia-hyundai-car-2...
- hgsgm 3y agoThere's a good article about that; it was recent posted on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35915492 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35915492
- fullstop 3y ago> Every large city has Kia and Hyundais, you would think this would be a nationwide phenomenon. It absolutely is, though.
- themaninthedark 3y agoI think it is a mistake to look at all cities, it should be looked at nationwide though. By only looking at cities you are pulling in a large number of other policies and effects that only cities may have implemented.
- itsoktocry 3y ago>“Hyundai and Kia’s decision to put cost savings and profits over public safety has had significant consequences for Baltimore and its residents..." Hyundai has some of the safest, most efficient small cars on the road, for great prices. I'd say these things are a net positive to "public safety" over all.
- hgsgm 3y agoDo those great prices include the cost of recovering a stolen car?
- antisthenes 3y agoFeel free to demand an additional discount when buying a Kia/Hyundai in Baltimore.
- arein3 3y agoHow is hyundai responsible for that? South corea is full of hyundais and there's no such problem there. Maybe the root cause of stealing is different?
- HDThoreaun 3y agoThey designed a car that is ridiculously easy to steal.
- arein3 3y agoIf you are a thief
- HDThoreaun 3y agoIt's ridiculously easy for anyone to steal. If I buy a door I expect the lock to work, that's the value doors provide. If it turns out that the lock actually does nothing I would consider myself defrauded by the door manufacturer unless they specifically told me that the lock doesn't work.
- sithadmin 3y agoNothing in the article nor the parts that you extracted establishes exactly why a municipality would have standing to sue a product manufacturer for damages, or why a manufacturer is somehow obligated to include features that a municipality deems to be 'standard'. The fact that there are consumer products whose absence of features creates a negative externality for local law enforcement doesn't seem like sufficient grounds for standing, and this sort of thing is hardly limited to auto antitheft features. Awarding a municipality damages or other relief here would set precedent opening the door to all sorts of whacky things. Should spraypaint manufacturers be held liable for graffiti? Should speaker manufacturers that sell devices without decibel-output-limiters be held liable for noise complaints? The sane answer here to all of this seems like 'no'. The appropriate venue for dealing with this is federal auto safety regulations, not municipalities trolling manufacturers in civil court.
- explorer83 3y agoThe city should run a public campaign to publicly advertise the consequences of stealing a vehicle (e.g./ jail, heavy fines, reduced job prospects, etc.). Make it clear criminals will be punished hard for stealing cars. Maybe they can ask the manufacturers and dealers to sponsor or donate to it.
- krisoft 3y agoOr the city can run a public campaign advertising these car models as prone to being stolen. That hurts the companies image, which puts pressure on them to get better. Of course it is cheaper if they don't have to buy ad-space for such an advertisement. Maybe they could use publicity around a lawsuit? Maybe that is what we are reading right now?
- harimau777 3y agoHow far does that line of reasoning go? Suppose that every car they sold used the same key. "We just said that the car has locks. We didn't say that those locks have unique keys." Clearly there has to be some degree to which a customer can assume that a product they buy meets the standard functionality associated with that product.
- oatmeal1 3y agoPublic nuisance for having crimes committed against you is a ridiculous legal theory. It's victim blaming to the highest degree. "Failing to keep up with industry standards" is also ridiculous because it's just a bandwagon fallacy.
- ttscar 3y agoThen punish the thefts. I don't think you people have any common sense. So glad I'm not in the US.
- harimau777 3y agoTheir cars omit the industry standard features to prevent someone from starting the car without a key. That makes the cars trivially easy to steal. When they purchase a car, a reasonable person would assume that the key works to the degree that is standard in the industry.
- jjk166 3y agoThere isn't a standard they are obligated to follow for preventing someone from starting a car without a key. Just because many companies do something one way does not automatically make it reasonable to assume all will. The entire point of being able to shop around between different car manufacturers is that you may want a vehicle that does something differently. For example, if you are in a place without a lot of car thieves, maybe you'd prefer the cost savings from a cheaper, inferior anti-theft system. Baltimore can make a standard requiring cars to have a better anti-theft system, but they haven't.
- mrjin 3y agoCan I assume what you were talking about is the immobilizer? I thought that thing is everywhere, especially in the new cars made in the last couple of years.
- cwoolfe 3y agoYes they are put in jail. But who bears the cost of extra policing, court time, jail space? The city does. So the city is seeking reparation from the cost incurred.
- hgsgm 3y agoThe perpetrator is responsible for that cost. If Kia is liable for inducing crime, government should be similarly liable for allowing crime; as preventing it is their main job.
- bluescrn 3y ago> But who bears the cost of extra policing, court time, jail space? Does that really exceed the cost damage done if they're left to keep on stealing/crashing cars? At some point they'll kill someone, and the 'cash value of a human life' question will come up.
- PedroBatista 3y agoPlease read the article before commenting. Yes, "You prevent theft by putting thieves in jail." But it's actually complicated if you adopt a realistic stance other than "I want to speak with the manager". The part that's Hyundai's fault is both the ridiculously easy to steal a car BUT also they dragged their feet when asked to address the issue and didn't do anything other than telling police and local governments "Wait for the next model in a couple of years"
- taffronaut 3y agoIt's Hyundai's fault that it's trivially easy to steal their cars. Also, you may prevent subsequent thefts by putting a particular thief in jail, but not the first one they commit. Hyundai make the jail route less valuable because the learning curve to steal Hyundai cars is so shallow that there can be a constant stream of new thieves committing their first theft.
- capableweb 3y ago> You prevent theft by putting theives in jail. It's not complicated. Damn you right, it's so simple, why didn't they thought of just putting the thieves in jail?! Also, seems like this whole "people stealing cars" thing doesn't just happen in Baltimore. What if putting the thieves in jail could work in other cities too? Maybe even internationally? You could be on to something really big here, I hope people from Baltimore government comes across your comment.
- krisoft 3y ago> You prevent theft by putting theives in jail. This is such an incredible naive view of the world. Whether or not crimes are committed is a complicated interplay of cost/benefit. You say that the city is acting as if thieves are some force of nature. And to a certain extent they are. If it is easy enough to commit a crime and the reward is high enough a crime will be committed. As an example if you leave gold bars littered on your front yard people will pick them up. No amount of "putting thieves in jail" will save you. Obviously increasing the chance of getting caught acts as a deterrent. But it is not cost free. Investigating and prosecuting car thieves cost hard money. If there are too many thieves of opportunity created by sub-par security arrangements the police/justice system becomes overwhelmed. The city can and should increase their police force of course, but at a certain point it is like trying to stop a tide with a rake. If you can prevent crime before it happens, for example by following sane and cost-efficient security practices that saves money and aggravation for everyone involved. What prevents crime is multiple overlapping layers of our society engineered such that crime is maintained at a certain level. "putting thieves in jail" is just one of those layers. And if you think you can simply policeman yourself out of any situation then you haven't thought about the problem to a sufficient depth yet
- linksnapzz 3y agoI notice that jewelers and goldsmiths in Riyadh have nowhere near the level of secure access controls, nor the type and amount of reinforced display cases that you see in Chicago or NYC. Likewise, I can leave a $4000 macbook on a table in a bar in the cheapest neighborhood in Saitama, and not have it walk off if I step outside for a smoke. Why do you suppose this is? What is happening there, that isn't happening in Baltimore?
- typeofhuman 3y ago[flagged]
- op00to 3y ago[flagged]