4 ms·

Indian Sign Talk (1893)

18 points by tintinnabula 3y ago

sandworm101 3y ago
>> desired that his book be put to use as a tool to convert Native Americans to Christianity comes from a section entitled "Receive Jesus Now". That just about sums up a few centuries of history. I am all for documenting an recording traditions, but I am totally against appropriating traditions for the express purpose of defeating them.
- _a_a_a_ 3y ago
  People change, societies and norms change what once was de rigueur is now rightly held repugnant. Religion back then is very different from religion now, what happened then wouldn't now. No point getting angry at the past. (atheist)
- the_third_wave 3y ago
  In the eyes of most of those who intended to convert people they were doing them a favour since they were convinced that heaven only awaited those who followed their faith. Compare it to vegans who try to convert people to their dietary choices - they may be annoying but they're not evil.
  - nine_k 3y ago
    Compare it to converting people to washing hands with soap, and to taking vaccines against deadly diseases. Both ideas require some rather elaborate mental framework which can't be trivially proven and requires study (and thus language proficiency). Both require some outwardly weird actions. Both ideas most literally save lives and stave off a lot of suffering. People actually go out and send expeditions into poorest regions of the world to bring these benefits there, at no cost to the locals, and at a significant cost to themselves. Now imagine that instead of saving people from cholera and plague you save them from death altogether. It should feel like a huge moral duty, and like the most important thing to ever do to those unenlightened.
ganarajpr 3y ago
Why has no one come up with a different name for the Native Americans? I know Columbus confused it to be India and called them Indians - but do we need to persist in his ignorance? To be honest if I had only read the title of this story I would have assumed that it dealt with a sign language invented in India. I know this is the wrong place to complain about this, but hey, you need to start the conversation somewhere!
- mat_epice 3y ago
  There is no need to come up with a new term, they already exist. You call the group what they want (e.g., Dine’e, tribe name, etc.), or indigenous American if referring to several groups. You may be shocked to learn that many indigenous groups are perfectly ok being called American Indians, and some don’t like the term Native American[1]. [1] https://americanindian.si.edu/nk360/faq/did-you-know https://americanindian.si.edu/nk360/faq/did-you-know
  - manquer 3y ago
    There is the other side of the equation , Indians have to fine with it too. I can’t speak for all 1.4B, but I find this misappropriation of my identity at best annoying and many times offensive . Just identifying ethnically in say a form is a complex dance in the US . - Identify as an Asian is considered inaccurate and also not acceptable for East Asians who already find it difficult enough being grouped as one big AAPI bucket which have vast differences - Identify as Indian could mean indigenous American or people from my country , so ambiguous. - Identify as Indian American and have nuanced differences between American Indian understood, that is assuming label is accurate - for residents who are not naturalized citizens it is not and that’s most Indians in the US - Identify as East Indian, that have different interpretation in India and America It just not our identity it is the swastika, or turbans symbols of my culture are just appropriated to be abused or misunderstood at least our name should be ours ?
    - ganarajpr 3y ago
      Exactly where I am coming from. As an Indian, I am personally not fine with this. I want my identity distinctly identifiable without having to double check if its from the Asian continent!

18 points by tintinnabula 3y ago

>> desired that his book be put to use as a tool to convert Native Americans to Christianity comes from a section entitled "Receive Jesus Now". That just about sums up a few centuries of history. I am all for documenting an recording traditions, but I am totally against appropriating traditions for the express purpose of defeating them.

_a_a_a_ 3y ago
People change, societies and norms change what once was de rigueur is now rightly held repugnant. Religion back then is very different from religion now, what happened then wouldn't now. No point getting angry at the past. (atheist)
the_third_wave 3y ago
In the eyes of most of those who intended to convert people they were doing them a favour since they were convinced that heaven only awaited those who followed their faith. Compare it to vegans who try to convert people to their dietary choices - they may be annoying but they're not evil.
- nine_k 3y ago
  Compare it to converting people to washing hands with soap, and to taking vaccines against deadly diseases. Both ideas require some rather elaborate mental framework which can't be trivially proven and requires study (and thus language proficiency). Both require some outwardly weird actions. Both ideas most literally save lives and stave off a lot of suffering. People actually go out and send expeditions into poorest regions of the world to bring these benefits there, at no cost to the locals, and at a significant cost to themselves. Now imagine that instead of saving people from cholera and plague you save them from death altogether. It should feel like a huge moral duty, and like the most important thing to ever do to those unenlightened.

ganarajpr 3y ago

Why has no one come up with a different name for the Native Americans? I know Columbus confused it to be India and called them Indians - but do we need to persist in his ignorance? To be honest if I had only read the title of this story I would have assumed that it dealt with a sign language invented in India. I know this is the wrong place to complain about this, but hey, you need to start the conversation somewhere!

mat_epice 3y ago
There is no need to come up with a new term, they already exist. You call the group what they want (e.g., Dine’e, tribe name, etc.), or indigenous American if referring to several groups. You may be shocked to learn that many indigenous groups are perfectly ok being called American Indians, and some don’t like the term Native American[1]. [1] https://americanindian.si.edu/nk360/faq/did-you-know https://americanindian.si.edu/nk360/faq/did-you-know
- manquer 3y ago
  There is the other side of the equation , Indians have to fine with it too. I can’t speak for all 1.4B, but I find this misappropriation of my identity at best annoying and many times offensive . Just identifying ethnically in say a form is a complex dance in the US . - Identify as an Asian is considered inaccurate and also not acceptable for East Asians who already find it difficult enough being grouped as one big AAPI bucket which have vast differences - Identify as Indian could mean indigenous American or people from my country , so ambiguous. - Identify as Indian American and have nuanced differences between American Indian understood, that is assuming label is accurate - for residents who are not naturalized citizens it is not and that’s most Indians in the US - Identify as East Indian, that have different interpretation in India and America It just not our identity it is the swastika, or turbans symbols of my culture are just appropriated to be abused or misunderstood at least our name should be ours ?
  - ganarajpr 3y ago
    Exactly where I am coming from. As an Indian, I am personally not fine with this. I want my identity distinctly identifiable without having to double check if its from the Asian continent!