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What would be the worst thing that happened to society if we just manufactured adderall and sold it OTC? Maybe some elevated cardiovascular problems across soc

What would be the worst thing that happened to society if we just manufactured adderall and sold it OTC? Maybe some elevated cardiovascular problems across society as a whole? Maybe some psychosis in serious chronic abusers? Why don't we just do this?

Spooky23 3y ago
It was widely available from ~1930 until 1970. JFK was regularly using meth. It created a lot of problems.
- LoganDark 3y ago
  > JFK was regularly using meth. It created a lot of problems. Problems caused by drug abuse != problems caused by drug availability. Meth is neurotoxic, we know this now. So are all stimulants, to a degree. I take magnesium supplements with my ADHD meds because it depletes my brain of natural magnesium—I have had blood tests confirm this. But meth can be particularly dangerous, especially due to how addictive it is and how neurotoxic it gets when abused, compared to even the other amphetamines like dextroamphetamine. All this is not to say that it shouldn't be widely available. Just that proper, responsible usage information should also be widely available. Which it is not. If people knew how to take meth properly and responsibly, maybe there would be less cases of it getting out of control. Too bad all people have to go off of is anti-drug propaganda that says all drugs are bad. Leads to them ignoring all advice altogether, even if it could've otherwise helped them.
  - Spooky23 3y ago
    You’re going to have a curve of abuse. Availability will affect that curve. Drugs like opioids and stimulants are great in that they work well at masking lots of symptoms, but our bodies adapt to them and the need for them feeds the physical dependence. The mental abuse factors amplify as well availability. Bookies and sports betting isn’t novel. Legalized betting on smartphones is; so now billions are spent on marketing to vacuum up many billions of dollars of bets. Humans are wired the way they are wired. Education about risk only benefits people capable of managing the risk - not the people likely to get addicted in the first place.
    - LoganDark 3y ago
      > Education about risk only benefits people capable of managing the risk - not the people likely to get addicted in the first place. Sure, but people likely to get addicted are sometimes also in the presence of people who would benefit from a proper drug education in order to help protect the more vulnerable. Am I saying people will stop using drugs if they stop being illegal? No way, the opposite actually. But if drug use wasn't considered indiscriminately bad, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing anyway.
    - junofan 3y ago
      I’m not really interested in managing the addictions of other people. Anyone who wants can already smoke meth by the gram.
LoganDark 3y ago
> What would be the worst thing that happened to society if we just manufactured adderall and sold it OTC? Honestly I agree with you. I think drugs like this should be sold OTC because it's basically just like food. It is a substance you put into your body. Just like psychedelics. And imagine the lives that would be saved if the drug propaganda did not desensitize everyone to actual help. This is the whole reason "harm reduction" forums exist. But, you know how it is, where the government doesn't trust anyone to use substances responsibly. Man, what I would give for a "responsible enough to buy drugs OTC" license or whatever. I get dextroamphetamine on prescription, but I also really like LSD and would love to be able to buy that OTC, legally, so I'd know the supply is safe and I'm not going to jail. Although, I'm pretty sure certain drugs like heroin compromise judgement to a great degree, which makes it very difficult to use responsibly, but honestly there are more creative ways to deal with this that society just hasn't explored because of the whole "war on drugs" ridiculousness.
- Fr0styMatt88 3y ago
  Yeah totally agree.
- waboremo 3y ago
  The war on drugs has substantially ruined entire generations by convincing people drug abuse can be solved purely by throwing people in jail and through shame. To think it's taken until ~2021-2022 for a federal administration in the US to finally admit there needs to be better solutions in place, it's absurd! All those deaths could have been prevented.
  - TylerE 3y ago
    And also by strongly implying that ALL drug use is drug abuse.
    - LoganDark 3y ago
      Yep... drugs are powerful substances that deserve to be treated with respect, but past that, it's possible to use them responsibly. The fact that some substances are just indiscriminately illegal is just... upsetting. Especially since even things like LSD are lumped into that "Schedule I" despite being... extremely safe? Given you're properly informed and prepared for the experience, of course. Only an example, but it's a particularly personal example.
Nursie 3y ago
Didn't we used to? IIRC Adderall is just plain old amphetamine, and you used to be able to buy that freely OTC. Looks like it was scheduled in the US in 1971.
- LoganDark 3y ago
  > Adderall is just plain old amphetamine Adderall is a mix of 3:1 dextroamphetamine to levoamphetamine. It is not "plain old amphetamine", also known as racemic or "free-base" amphetamine (equal mix of dextro- and levo-). I can't take levoamphetamine, and need dextroamphetamine directly. Unsure if that was ever sold OTC on its own.
  - Nursie 3y ago
    By plain old amphetamine I meant structurally, rather than a specific stereoisomer mix. Though I guess I had assumed it was 100% dextroamphetamine. I think Dexedrine was sold OTC in the 50s and 60s, hard to be sure, sources I can find talk about it being popular for use by anyone and everyone, from dieting housewives to truck drivers and athletes, but don't specifically mention it being OTC or prescription.
    - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
      Charles Whitman was dependent on Dexedrine, and he packed a good supply of it on that last day of his life. Dexedrine and other psychotropic pharmaceuticals have figured prominently in most mass shootings since that time.
      - Nursie 3y ago
        > Dexedrine and other psychotropic pharmaceuticals have figured prominently in most mass shootings since that time. Any sort of source to back this up? I'm not arguing for dexedrine etc to be freely available, FYI, just discussing that it used to be.
        3y ago
TylerE 3y ago
The cardio effects may well be nulled out if some percentage all of users was more physically active as a result. I generally support making more stuff OTC. For instance, in many countries low dosage codeine tablets are available OTC. Similarly, given that the already have a plethora of bars, I see no harm in airports adding Valium vending machines.
whalesalad 3y ago
Bingo
jjk166 3y ago
I think the real issue is that all it should take to get a prescription is a confirmation that you know the procedure for administering the proper dose and that you understand the expected efficacy and risks of doing so. It should be a process that could be completely handled by a kiosk. Maybe a drug won't help them, or even hurt them, but so long as they are informed they should have the right to make that decision for themselves. We let people buy peanut butter without demanding a note from a doctor saying they don't have a peanut allergy. Perhaps some things should have a traditional prescription but the burden on the government should be pretty high to prove that it's something so complicated or so dangerous that it would be catastrophic to permit direct sale to the public.
Auracle 3y ago
I take Adderall for idiopathic hypersomnia. But boy does it come in handy for other things. It’s the best cold symptom medication there is. Need to drive late at night when you should be tired? Pop 5mg and you can actually drive safely for a few hours. It’s a shame we have it locked away. That said, it’s dangerous to think other people would act like you. People would definitely abuse it (more than they already do). I come down on your idea like I do in most drug legalization questions. Conceptually I think we should be able to do whatever the hell we want to our bodies. Realistically I don’t know if that works for society.

Spooky23 3y ago

It was widely available from ~1930 until 1970. JFK was regularly using meth. It created a lot of problems.

LoganDark 3y ago
> JFK was regularly using meth. It created a lot of problems. Problems caused by drug abuse != problems caused by drug availability. Meth is neurotoxic, we know this now. So are all stimulants, to a degree. I take magnesium supplements with my ADHD meds because it depletes my brain of natural magnesium—I have had blood tests confirm this. But meth can be particularly dangerous, especially due to how addictive it is and how neurotoxic it gets when abused, compared to even the other amphetamines like dextroamphetamine. All this is not to say that it shouldn't be widely available. Just that proper, responsible usage information should also be widely available. Which it is not. If people knew how to take meth properly and responsibly, maybe there would be less cases of it getting out of control. Too bad all people have to go off of is anti-drug propaganda that says all drugs are bad. Leads to them ignoring all advice altogether, even if it could've otherwise helped them.
- Spooky23 3y ago
  You’re going to have a curve of abuse. Availability will affect that curve. Drugs like opioids and stimulants are great in that they work well at masking lots of symptoms, but our bodies adapt to them and the need for them feeds the physical dependence. The mental abuse factors amplify as well availability. Bookies and sports betting isn’t novel. Legalized betting on smartphones is; so now billions are spent on marketing to vacuum up many billions of dollars of bets. Humans are wired the way they are wired. Education about risk only benefits people capable of managing the risk - not the people likely to get addicted in the first place.
  - LoganDark 3y ago
    > Education about risk only benefits people capable of managing the risk - not the people likely to get addicted in the first place. Sure, but people likely to get addicted are sometimes also in the presence of people who would benefit from a proper drug education in order to help protect the more vulnerable. Am I saying people will stop using drugs if they stop being illegal? No way, the opposite actually. But if drug use wasn't considered indiscriminately bad, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing anyway.
  - junofan 3y ago
    I’m not really interested in managing the addictions of other people. Anyone who wants can already smoke meth by the gram.

LoganDark 3y ago

> What would be the worst thing that happened to society if we just manufactured adderall and sold it OTC? Honestly I agree with you. I think drugs like this should be sold OTC because it's basically just like food. It is a substance you put into your body. Just like psychedelics. And imagine the lives that would be saved if the drug propaganda did not desensitize everyone to actual help. This is the whole reason "harm reduction" forums exist. But, you know how it is, where the government doesn't trust anyone to use substances responsibly. Man, what I would give for a "responsible enough to buy drugs OTC" license or whatever. I get dextroamphetamine on prescription, but I also really like LSD and would love to be able to buy that OTC, legally, so I'd know the supply is safe and I'm not going to jail. Although, I'm pretty sure certain drugs like heroin compromise judgement to a great degree, which makes it very difficult to use responsibly, but honestly there are more creative ways to deal with this that society just hasn't explored because of the whole "war on drugs" ridiculousness.

Fr0styMatt88 3y ago
Yeah totally agree.
waboremo 3y ago
The war on drugs has substantially ruined entire generations by convincing people drug abuse can be solved purely by throwing people in jail and through shame. To think it's taken until ~2021-2022 for a federal administration in the US to finally admit there needs to be better solutions in place, it's absurd! All those deaths could have been prevented.
- TylerE 3y ago
  And also by strongly implying that ALL drug use is drug abuse.
  - LoganDark 3y ago
    Yep... drugs are powerful substances that deserve to be treated with respect, but past that, it's possible to use them responsibly. The fact that some substances are just indiscriminately illegal is just... upsetting. Especially since even things like LSD are lumped into that "Schedule I" despite being... extremely safe? Given you're properly informed and prepared for the experience, of course. Only an example, but it's a particularly personal example.

Nursie 3y ago

Didn't we used to? IIRC Adderall is just plain old amphetamine, and you used to be able to buy that freely OTC. Looks like it was scheduled in the US in 1971.

LoganDark 3y ago
> Adderall is just plain old amphetamine Adderall is a mix of 3:1 dextroamphetamine to levoamphetamine. It is not "plain old amphetamine", also known as racemic or "free-base" amphetamine (equal mix of dextro- and levo-). I can't take levoamphetamine, and need dextroamphetamine directly. Unsure if that was ever sold OTC on its own.
- Nursie 3y ago
  By plain old amphetamine I meant structurally, rather than a specific stereoisomer mix. Though I guess I had assumed it was 100% dextroamphetamine. I think Dexedrine was sold OTC in the 50s and 60s, hard to be sure, sources I can find talk about it being popular for use by anyone and everyone, from dieting housewives to truck drivers and athletes, but don't specifically mention it being OTC or prescription.
  - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
    Charles Whitman was dependent on Dexedrine, and he packed a good supply of it on that last day of his life. Dexedrine and other psychotropic pharmaceuticals have figured prominently in most mass shootings since that time.
    - Nursie 3y ago
      > Dexedrine and other psychotropic pharmaceuticals have figured prominently in most mass shootings since that time. Any sort of source to back this up? I'm not arguing for dexedrine etc to be freely available, FYI, just discussing that it used to be.
      - 3y ago

TylerE 3y ago

The cardio effects may well be nulled out if some percentage all of users was more physically active as a result. I generally support making more stuff OTC. For instance, in many countries low dosage codeine tablets are available OTC. Similarly, given that the already have a plethora of bars, I see no harm in airports adding Valium vending machines.

whalesalad 3y ago

Bingo

jjk166 3y ago

I think the real issue is that all it should take to get a prescription is a confirmation that you know the procedure for administering the proper dose and that you understand the expected efficacy and risks of doing so. It should be a process that could be completely handled by a kiosk. Maybe a drug won't help them, or even hurt them, but so long as they are informed they should have the right to make that decision for themselves. We let people buy peanut butter without demanding a note from a doctor saying they don't have a peanut allergy. Perhaps some things should have a traditional prescription but the burden on the government should be pretty high to prove that it's something so complicated or so dangerous that it would be catastrophic to permit direct sale to the public.

Auracle 3y ago

I take Adderall for idiopathic hypersomnia. But boy does it come in handy for other things. It’s the best cold symptom medication there is. Need to drive late at night when you should be tired? Pop 5mg and you can actually drive safely for a few hours. It’s a shame we have it locked away. That said, it’s dangerous to think other people would act like you. People would definitely abuse it (more than they already do). I come down on your idea like I do in most drug legalization questions. Conceptually I think we should be able to do whatever the hell we want to our bodies. Realistically I don’t know if that works for society.