7 ms·

Forgetful Browsing

91 points by keyboardJones 3y ago

FengLengshun 3y ago
This sounds nice. Since it is incorporated to the Brave Shield, it should be synced across browsers, I think? That would solve the major issue blocking me from using Cookies Auto Delete -- I would have stuff added on one device, then I forgot to export it to my synced folder to import on another device, and I start to lose track about which stuff aren't on which device's list yet. Brave being able to sync my no JavaScript, block Image, and block Cookies list is why I'm basically "locked-in" to Brave. I don't like its crypto stuff, but I don't see any of the other incorporating as many accessible privacy options that syncs across device as Brave does. I really wish Firefox, or even Vivaldi, would do it because I really don't like the crypto stuff, but I really like almost everything else Brave does.
keyboardJones 3y ago
Not affiliated with Brave, simply found it interesting.
rendx 3y ago
I use the Cookie AutoDelete extension with Firefox.
kyleee 3y ago
It’s great to see innovation in the browser space. Brave has (sort of shoddy, but I think WIP) support for vertical tabs now so I am using it more. As with all browsers just go through the settings on first install and turn off a bunch of stuff, ex. the crypto/rewards stuff (unless you like that sort of thing) and it’s a pretty good browsing experience. Their search is decent too, has a little section surfacing forum results which is sometimes helpful, and Goggles which I’ve been meaning to use more. Also the ‘Open in new window with Tor’ is pretty neat
- soundnote 3y ago
  Hasn't been all that shoddy on beta/nightly branches for me, can't speak for stable.
xp84 3y ago
Super glad to see this! Given how simple, trustable, and verifiable it is for the browser to simply enforce the user's 'privacy' preferences by means of dropping unwanted cookies on the ground as soon as the user leaves the site, I am irritated that this wasn't the solution arrived upon many years ago instead of the asinine "This site uses cookies, allow?" warnings that GDPR and CCPA brought upon us. Those, by contrast, are (allegedly) trying to solve a problem inside the website context itself, despite the fact that the APIs they need to use for actually managing cookies are archaic and limited, and also despite the fact that they actually have to remember you to remember your so-called "cookie preferences." A cookie shouldn't be mentally-modeled like a tattoo, it should be modeled like a leaflet you're handed on the street. You can ignore it, or you can pretend to take it and dispose of it immediately or as soon as you leave. This is the way it should be.
- powvans 3y ago
  Every. Single. Time. I open a Stackoverflow link, they ask me about cookies. Because my browser dumps them, I know, I know, but so irritating.
  - nazgulsenpai 3y ago
    In most ad-blockers you can use the Block Element feature to find and block that element and it should be remembered between visits.
lapcat 3y ago
I'm unclear about how this differs from chrome://settings/cookies I have Chrome set the block third-party cookies and to clear cookies and site data when you close all windows. Then I have a list of about 20 sites that can always use cookies (where I want to remain logged in), and a list of a half dozen sites that can never use cookies.
- its-summertime 3y ago
  it clears without needing a full cycle, which is more notable for mobile browsers — which persist session information across restarts of the app — and for desktop browsers which do the same
prettyStandard 3y ago
I've been using Brave as my daily driver for a while now. I like it. I understand people don't like crypto blah blah blah but you don't have to use it.
- veidr 3y ago
  Me too. I mean I use several browsers at the same time, but Brave has become the "main" browser I use for all my personal browsing (work shit, I leave in Chrome). But the thing is I don't like Brave, either. I don't like the crypto, and I don't like the business model (replace websites' chosen ads with their own ads). And, in that way we judge people whom we don't know personally based on the set of things we do know about them, I don't like Brandon Eich. Nevertheless, for around a year and counting, I use Brave the most because it's just the best browser. It's fast, and blocks a lot more of the shit I don't ever want to see in my browser without me having to configure anything. (I will note that I do have to turn off all sorts of annoying shit in Brave, like the news and the crypto and the "better" ads, but you only have to do that one time and then it syncs across your other devices.) It's funny to me that for web browsers today, blocking things has become arguably more important than rendering things, but there it is. They were the first browser AFAIK to build in blocking for those cunty "we had to smear our web page with feces because of mean old Europe and their GDPR, please please click this to give us permission to let our advertising cabal spy on you using your own hardware" notices. This is another one in that vein. Allowing any and all "unwanted first-party reidentification" is a nonsense default. I get how it happened, that it wasn't designed for the surveillance capitalist hellscape that the web has become, but whatever; inverting the default on that is definitely how I want my browser on my computer to behave. More like this, please.
  - BrendanEich 3y ago
    "replace websites' chosen ads with their own ads" We've never done this. Why do you think we did or would?
    - llarsson 3y ago
      Semantic difference. Brave takes away ads from pages. Then, it shows other ads in other ways: https://brave.com/brave-rewards/ https://brave.com/brave-rewards/ https://brave.com/brave-ads/ad-formats/ https://brave.com/brave-ads/ad-formats/ So while the statement that it "replaces ads with their own ads" is technically false (the ads are not injected into the web sites in place of the blocked ones), it's still a sloppy but mostly correct way of pointing out that the business incentive behind Brave's ad blocking means that the goal isn't abolish ads as a concept altogether. The point is still to show ads if companies want to pay for it.
smeej 3y ago
It was weird to me that opening this link in my mobile Brave browser opened it at a zoom level where I had to scroll side-to-side. If you're only going to check one thing, shouldn't it be how your own browser loads your site if you're a browser company?
- keyboardJones 3y ago
  I noticed the same thing.
- jonathansampson 3y ago
  That was my bad :( I forgot the "w-full" class on the Shields image. I set the "max-w-md" class alone, which sounds like it's supposed to prevent the image from being wider than the viewport itself, but that isn't the case. Apologies.
SoftTalker 3y ago
I use Firefox mostly, but my settings are like this. No history or cookies saved between sessions. Caches cleared when I close the browser. Search suggestions disabled.
newscracker 3y ago
This is great, and the fact that it clears HTTP cache and DNS cache is different from (and more aggressive on protecting privacy) other browsers and methods. I use Firefox as my primary browser with Temporary Containers [1] and Cookie AutoDelete [2] (configured to clear local storage too). This combination does not handle DNS cache, but it does keep each tab separate (in Brave’s forgetful browsing, this is by site). Brave makes it easier to choose Forgetful Browsing, though I just say that the toggle for this should be out in Shields instead of being hidden under Advanced controls. Most people who can figure this out and use it may probably be able to use Firefox and extensions as well. But the friction is a bit higher it’s Firefox and configuring different extensions. Brave should focus on eliminating this friction wherever possible so that the features are discoverable. I keep Brave handy on my systems even though its not what I use the most. These innovations tilt the balance for me (on some of the negative steps Brave took with respect to ads). [1]: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/temporary-containers/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/temporary-con... [2]: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/cookie-autodelete/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/cookie-autode...
- JenrHywy 3y ago
  I really want Brave to succeed, and I like where they're going - but temporary containers still seems like a superior approach in pretty much every way.
- watashiato 3y ago
  While I'm not sure about the privacy advantages, setting network.dnsCacheEntries to 0 will prevent firefox from caching dns. There's no appreciable difference in response time on my setup, it just hits the local dnscrypt-proxy cache instead.
1101010010 3y ago
Most of the nefarious tracking is taking place via canvas fingerprinting these days, clearing cookies does nothing but make the unaware user feel good they're "doing something".
- bomewish 3y ago
  Care to elaborate?
  - 1101010010 3y ago
    https://browserleaks.com/canvas https://browserleaks.com/canvas Open it in a regular and "incognito" browser tab. This is a long term identifier of your browser which persists across cookie clearing, IP address changes and other ritualistic totems privacy-seeking individuals still inexplicably cling to.
    - hosteur 3y ago
      How do one protect against this?
      - 1101010010 3y ago
        Simply don't allow Javascript.
        trh0awayman 3y ago
        Unfortunately, even that might not be enough these days with newer fingerprinting methods.
      - coldblues 3y ago
        https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-protection-against-fingerprinting https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-protection-agai...
alphanullmeric 3y ago
It sucks because Firefox is the only browser that has autoscroll on Linux and proper tab sync between devices. Meanwhile, Brave is much faster and isn’t a horrible experience on iOS. So I end up using Firefox on my computers, brave on my phone, and manually bookmark syncing to keep it together.
- shaicoleman 3y ago
  There are autoscroll extensions for Chrome based browsers that with fine with Linux
kytazo 3y ago
If you ask me, it can't get better than a properly setup firefox https://librewolf.net/docs/features/ https://librewolf.net/docs/features/ https://github.com/arkenfox/user.js https://github.com/arkenfox/user.js -- If you're constrained using ff
- INeedMoreRam 3y ago
  How do you balance using Librewolf default cookie blocking with high frequency sites like email/social media/bank accounts? I find there's a convenience with being logged into some of these sites like the Brave article discusses, instead of having to log in from scratch multiple times a day Or do you never enable cookies? Just curious
- aio2 3y ago
  I was thinking the same thing. I'm pretty sure Librewolf already got this covered, and even it doesn't, it can still be easily done.
- jacooper 3y ago
  Librewolf isn't a mainstream browsers, and it breaks a ton of stuff.
iansinnott 3y ago
I'm not clear on how this differs from private browsing (incognito, or whatever) other than retaining a history entry of the visit. I'm all for users having more options in how they browse, but is there more to this feature than I'm seeing?
- UtopiaFans 3y ago
  [dead]
- n42 3y ago
  I think the idea is that, rather than waiting until the tab is closed to clear the entire session, as you navigate away from ABC.com to XYZ.com, cookies from ABC.com are cleared
  - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
    I know a student who was ambushed by admin because they wanted to get his phone before he locked it. It worked, they snooped his social media and used the info to harass his friends. I don't know the specific state his phone was in when they nabbed it, but it's conceivable that this could've helped him.
louison11 3y ago
This is great and the right direction for the web. But it’s also gonna make it really hard for websites to use analytics tools and understand their customer’s behaviors. Not all websites are predatory, some companies just genuinely want to better understand their clients. I wonder what alternatives could emerge to provide privacy-protecting analytics? Any ideas?
- lionkor 3y ago
  What kind of analytics are important for this?
  - louison11 3y ago
    Being able to track new vs recurring visitors, and the succession of events in between visits.
- reportgunner 3y ago
  You could simply ask your visitors.
- pabs3 3y ago
  The best option is to respect clients privacy and don't collect data about them.

91 points by keyboardJones 3y ago

This sounds nice. Since it is incorporated to the Brave Shield, it should be synced across browsers, I think? That would solve the major issue blocking me from using Cookies Auto Delete -- I would have stuff added on one device, then I forgot to export it to my synced folder to import on another device, and I start to lose track about which stuff aren't on which device's list yet. Brave being able to sync my no JavaScript, block Image, and block Cookies list is why I'm basically "locked-in" to Brave. I don't like its crypto stuff, but I don't see any of the other incorporating as many accessible privacy options that syncs across device as Brave does. I really wish Firefox, or even Vivaldi, would do it because I really don't like the crypto stuff, but I really like almost everything else Brave does.

keyboardJones 3y ago

Not affiliated with Brave, simply found it interesting.

rendx 3y ago

I use the Cookie AutoDelete extension with Firefox.

kyleee 3y ago

It’s great to see innovation in the browser space. Brave has (sort of shoddy, but I think WIP) support for vertical tabs now so I am using it more. As with all browsers just go through the settings on first install and turn off a bunch of stuff, ex. the crypto/rewards stuff (unless you like that sort of thing) and it’s a pretty good browsing experience. Their search is decent too, has a little section surfacing forum results which is sometimes helpful, and Goggles which I’ve been meaning to use more. Also the ‘Open in new window with Tor’ is pretty neat

soundnote 3y ago
Hasn't been all that shoddy on beta/nightly branches for me, can't speak for stable.

xp84 3y ago

Super glad to see this! Given how simple, trustable, and verifiable it is for the browser to simply enforce the user's 'privacy' preferences by means of dropping unwanted cookies on the ground as soon as the user leaves the site, I am irritated that this wasn't the solution arrived upon many years ago instead of the asinine "This site uses cookies, allow?" warnings that GDPR and CCPA brought upon us. Those, by contrast, are (allegedly) trying to solve a problem inside the website context itself, despite the fact that the APIs they need to use for actually managing cookies are archaic and limited, and also despite the fact that they actually have to remember you to remember your so-called "cookie preferences." A cookie shouldn't be mentally-modeled like a tattoo, it should be modeled like a leaflet you're handed on the street. You can ignore it, or you can pretend to take it and dispose of it immediately or as soon as you leave. This is the way it should be.

powvans 3y ago
Every. Single. Time. I open a Stackoverflow link, they ask me about cookies. Because my browser dumps them, I know, I know, but so irritating.
- nazgulsenpai 3y ago
  In most ad-blockers you can use the Block Element feature to find and block that element and it should be remembered between visits.

lapcat 3y ago

I'm unclear about how this differs from chrome://settings/cookies I have Chrome set the block third-party cookies and to clear cookies and site data when you close all windows. Then I have a list of about 20 sites that can always use cookies (where I want to remain logged in), and a list of a half dozen sites that can never use cookies.

its-summertime 3y ago
it clears without needing a full cycle, which is more notable for mobile browsers — which persist session information across restarts of the app — and for desktop browsers which do the same

prettyStandard 3y ago

I've been using Brave as my daily driver for a while now. I like it. I understand people don't like crypto blah blah blah but you don't have to use it.

veidr 3y ago
Me too. I mean I use several browsers at the same time, but Brave has become the "main" browser I use for all my personal browsing (work shit, I leave in Chrome). But the thing is I don't like Brave, either. I don't like the crypto, and I don't like the business model (replace websites' chosen ads with their own ads). And, in that way we judge people whom we don't know personally based on the set of things we do know about them, I don't like Brandon Eich. Nevertheless, for around a year and counting, I use Brave the most because it's just the best browser. It's fast, and blocks a lot more of the shit I don't ever want to see in my browser without me having to configure anything. (I will note that I do have to turn off all sorts of annoying shit in Brave, like the news and the crypto and the "better" ads, but you only have to do that one time and then it syncs across your other devices.) It's funny to me that for web browsers today, blocking things has become arguably more important than rendering things, but there it is. They were the first browser AFAIK to build in blocking for those cunty "we had to smear our web page with feces because of mean old Europe and their GDPR, please please click this to give us permission to let our advertising cabal spy on you using your own hardware" notices. This is another one in that vein. Allowing any and all "unwanted first-party reidentification" is a nonsense default. I get how it happened, that it wasn't designed for the surveillance capitalist hellscape that the web has become, but whatever; inverting the default on that is definitely how I want my browser on my computer to behave. More like this, please.
- BrendanEich 3y ago
  "replace websites' chosen ads with their own ads" We've never done this. Why do you think we did or would?
  - llarsson 3y ago
    Semantic difference. Brave takes away ads from pages. Then, it shows other ads in other ways: https://brave.com/brave-rewards/ https://brave.com/brave-rewards/ https://brave.com/brave-ads/ad-formats/ https://brave.com/brave-ads/ad-formats/ So while the statement that it "replaces ads with their own ads" is technically false (the ads are not injected into the web sites in place of the blocked ones), it's still a sloppy but mostly correct way of pointing out that the business incentive behind Brave's ad blocking means that the goal isn't abolish ads as a concept altogether. The point is still to show ads if companies want to pay for it.

smeej 3y ago

It was weird to me that opening this link in my mobile Brave browser opened it at a zoom level where I had to scroll side-to-side. If you're only going to check one thing, shouldn't it be how your own browser loads your site if you're a browser company?

keyboardJones 3y ago
I noticed the same thing.
jonathansampson 3y ago
That was my bad :( I forgot the "w-full" class on the Shields image. I set the "max-w-md" class alone, which sounds like it's supposed to prevent the image from being wider than the viewport itself, but that isn't the case. Apologies.

SoftTalker 3y ago

I use Firefox mostly, but my settings are like this. No history or cookies saved between sessions. Caches cleared when I close the browser. Search suggestions disabled.

newscracker 3y ago

This is great, and the fact that it clears HTTP cache and DNS cache is different from (and more aggressive on protecting privacy) other browsers and methods. I use Firefox as my primary browser with Temporary Containers [1] and Cookie AutoDelete [2] (configured to clear local storage too). This combination does not handle DNS cache, but it does keep each tab separate (in Brave’s forgetful browsing, this is by site). Brave makes it easier to choose Forgetful Browsing, though I just say that the toggle for this should be out in Shields instead of being hidden under Advanced controls. Most people who can figure this out and use it may probably be able to use Firefox and extensions as well. But the friction is a bit higher it’s Firefox and configuring different extensions. Brave should focus on eliminating this friction wherever possible so that the features are discoverable. I keep Brave handy on my systems even though its not what I use the most. These innovations tilt the balance for me (on some of the negative steps Brave took with respect to ads). [1]: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/temporary-containers/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/temporary-con... [2]: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/cookie-autodelete/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/cookie-autode...

JenrHywy 3y ago
I really want Brave to succeed, and I like where they're going - but temporary containers still seems like a superior approach in pretty much every way.
watashiato 3y ago
While I'm not sure about the privacy advantages, setting network.dnsCacheEntries to 0 will prevent firefox from caching dns. There's no appreciable difference in response time on my setup, it just hits the local dnscrypt-proxy cache instead.

1101010010 3y ago

Most of the nefarious tracking is taking place via canvas fingerprinting these days, clearing cookies does nothing but make the unaware user feel good they're "doing something".

bomewish 3y ago
Care to elaborate?
- 1101010010 3y ago
  https://browserleaks.com/canvas https://browserleaks.com/canvas Open it in a regular and "incognito" browser tab. This is a long term identifier of your browser which persists across cookie clearing, IP address changes and other ritualistic totems privacy-seeking individuals still inexplicably cling to.
  - hosteur 3y ago
    How do one protect against this?
    - 1101010010 3y ago
      Simply don't allow Javascript.
      - trh0awayman 3y ago
        Unfortunately, even that might not be enough these days with newer fingerprinting methods.
    - coldblues 3y ago
      https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-protection-against-fingerprinting https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-protection-agai...

alphanullmeric 3y ago

It sucks because Firefox is the only browser that has autoscroll on Linux and proper tab sync between devices. Meanwhile, Brave is much faster and isn’t a horrible experience on iOS. So I end up using Firefox on my computers, brave on my phone, and manually bookmark syncing to keep it together.

shaicoleman 3y ago
There are autoscroll extensions for Chrome based browsers that with fine with Linux

kytazo 3y ago

If you ask me, it can't get better than a properly setup firefox https://librewolf.net/docs/features/ https://librewolf.net/docs/features/ https://github.com/arkenfox/user.js https://github.com/arkenfox/user.js -- If you're constrained using ff

INeedMoreRam 3y ago
How do you balance using Librewolf default cookie blocking with high frequency sites like email/social media/bank accounts? I find there's a convenience with being logged into some of these sites like the Brave article discusses, instead of having to log in from scratch multiple times a day Or do you never enable cookies? Just curious
aio2 3y ago
I was thinking the same thing. I'm pretty sure Librewolf already got this covered, and even it doesn't, it can still be easily done.
jacooper 3y ago
Librewolf isn't a mainstream browsers, and it breaks a ton of stuff.

iansinnott 3y ago

I'm not clear on how this differs from private browsing (incognito, or whatever) other than retaining a history entry of the visit. I'm all for users having more options in how they browse, but is there more to this feature than I'm seeing?

UtopiaFans 3y ago
[dead]
n42 3y ago
I think the idea is that, rather than waiting until the tab is closed to clear the entire session, as you navigate away from ABC.com to XYZ.com, cookies from ABC.com are cleared
- __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
  I know a student who was ambushed by admin because they wanted to get his phone before he locked it. It worked, they snooped his social media and used the info to harass his friends. I don't know the specific state his phone was in when they nabbed it, but it's conceivable that this could've helped him.

louison11 3y ago

This is great and the right direction for the web. But it’s also gonna make it really hard for websites to use analytics tools and understand their customer’s behaviors. Not all websites are predatory, some companies just genuinely want to better understand their clients. I wonder what alternatives could emerge to provide privacy-protecting analytics? Any ideas?

lionkor 3y ago
What kind of analytics are important for this?
- louison11 3y ago
  Being able to track new vs recurring visitors, and the succession of events in between visits.
reportgunner 3y ago
You could simply ask your visitors.
pabs3 3y ago
The best option is to respect clients privacy and don't collect data about them.