4 ms·

Ah, yes. "Entitlement"... I'd say: to show that its authors have a sense of decency, at least. But let's not assassinate the lads any more than this.

sfpotter 3y ago
Authors of open source projects don’t owe you anything. If you want something changed, do it yourself, or ask them. You could even go so far as to offer to pay them. If you aren’t up for any of that, well… not sure what to tell you!
- klibertp 3y ago
  > If you want something changed, do it yourself, or ask them. I did ask. See my other comment[1]. The only thing I got out of asking was name calling, dismissive and rude remarks, and the immortal "do it yourself". Before the package manager thing, I did the same - years earlier - asking on the mailing list how to bind keys to commands. What I got out of this was name calling, dismissive and rude remarks, and the immortal "learn to use the mouse already!" Sure, nobody owes anything to anybody, not even not being toxic and abrasive. But I also don't owe the toxic and abrasive community anything - certainly not avoiding criticizing it. Right? Oh, and I'm certainly NOT going to offer money to people who swear at me. Yeah, it's not a product, not developed by a company, all true - but I still refuse to be called an idiot and keep quiet about it. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35906419 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35906419
bowsamic 3y ago
So, to be clear, you are saying that it is indecent that there isn't a notice on their page saying "this project is not for lazy people. Please go away if you are too lazy to find the tutorial"? I really don't think that is more decent
- klibertp 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - bowsamic 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - klibertp 3y ago
      Look, I spent 5 years trying to work with Pharo. Not a few minutes. Yeah, I don't care about Pharo anymore. At all. That's because of what I've been through with it and its community. So please stop telling me I'm lazy, entitled, or that I "don't care after a few minutes". I've been giving Pharo chances for years - it just never got any better. I'm mentioning Cincom (no affiliation) Visual Works over and over again. If you read it carefully, you'd see that I'm not entirely OK with the restrictive personal license, the lack of any cryptography-related stuff (incl. HTTPS), and the closed source VM. I'd prefer a Smalltalk without these restrictions. I still use VW and not Pharo - because the gap in quality of the software is so incredibly wide that it dwarfs other considerations. VW looks like it's made by professionals (well paid at that). Pharo looks anything but, yet (politely, out of concern and genuine interest) pointing it out gets you hate and verbal violence from the community. I want an open source Smalltalk implementation. I want more people to like Smalltalk. I want more people to use Smalltalk. Pharo could be helpful with these, but it's not. Instead of a gateway into Smalltalk ecosystem, Pharo is an impenetrable wall to new users. And the community doesn't care. There are some people that do care. See Glamorous Toolkit. See Cuis. I wrote a few small pet projects in Pharo, back in 2012. They kept getting broken release after release. And at some point, the default download with official releases stopped working altogether. And never worked again. There's a ticket from 2021 (created years after it stopped working for me) describing the problem: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/9729 https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/9729 This is a regression brought about due to another rewrite of something. Still not fixed. You know, I could fix myself and contribute the fix - I have the skills and could potentially find the time. But Pharo and its community burned so many bridges for me that this is not going to happen. Call me petty all you want, but the kinds of people running Pharo are just not worth being helped.

sfpotter 3y ago

Authors of open source projects don’t owe you anything. If you want something changed, do it yourself, or ask them. You could even go so far as to offer to pay them. If you aren’t up for any of that, well… not sure what to tell you!

klibertp 3y ago
> If you want something changed, do it yourself, or ask them. I did ask. See my other comment[1]. The only thing I got out of asking was name calling, dismissive and rude remarks, and the immortal "do it yourself". Before the package manager thing, I did the same - years earlier - asking on the mailing list how to bind keys to commands. What I got out of this was name calling, dismissive and rude remarks, and the immortal "learn to use the mouse already!" Sure, nobody owes anything to anybody, not even not being toxic and abrasive. But I also don't owe the toxic and abrasive community anything - certainly not avoiding criticizing it. Right? Oh, and I'm certainly NOT going to offer money to people who swear at me. Yeah, it's not a product, not developed by a company, all true - but I still refuse to be called an idiot and keep quiet about it. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35906419 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35906419

bowsamic 3y ago

So, to be clear, you are saying that it is indecent that there isn't a notice on their page saying "this project is not for lazy people. Please go away if you are too lazy to find the tutorial"? I really don't think that is more decent

klibertp 3y ago
[flagged]
- bowsamic 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - klibertp 3y ago
    Look, I spent 5 years trying to work with Pharo. Not a few minutes. Yeah, I don't care about Pharo anymore. At all. That's because of what I've been through with it and its community. So please stop telling me I'm lazy, entitled, or that I "don't care after a few minutes". I've been giving Pharo chances for years - it just never got any better. I'm mentioning Cincom (no affiliation) Visual Works over and over again. If you read it carefully, you'd see that I'm not entirely OK with the restrictive personal license, the lack of any cryptography-related stuff (incl. HTTPS), and the closed source VM. I'd prefer a Smalltalk without these restrictions. I still use VW and not Pharo - because the gap in quality of the software is so incredibly wide that it dwarfs other considerations. VW looks like it's made by professionals (well paid at that). Pharo looks anything but, yet (politely, out of concern and genuine interest) pointing it out gets you hate and verbal violence from the community. I want an open source Smalltalk implementation. I want more people to like Smalltalk. I want more people to use Smalltalk. Pharo could be helpful with these, but it's not. Instead of a gateway into Smalltalk ecosystem, Pharo is an impenetrable wall to new users. And the community doesn't care. There are some people that do care. See Glamorous Toolkit. See Cuis. I wrote a few small pet projects in Pharo, back in 2012. They kept getting broken release after release. And at some point, the default download with official releases stopped working altogether. And never worked again. There's a ticket from 2021 (created years after it stopped working for me) describing the problem: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/9729 https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/9729 This is a regression brought about due to another rewrite of something. Still not fixed. You know, I could fix myself and contribute the fix - I have the skills and could potentially find the time. But Pharo and its community burned so many bridges for me that this is not going to happen. Call me petty all you want, but the kinds of people running Pharo are just not worth being helped.