5 ms·

...because they don't want to be excluded from their friends' and families' group chats. And once they join the blue-bubble club, they of course partake in the

by cs702 3y ago

...because they don't want to be excluded from their friends' and families' group chats. And once they join the blue-bubble club, they of course partake in the chanting: "Blue bubbles only, please!", "The green bubbles mess up group chats on my iPhone!", "Images in green bubbles never look right!", etc.

lostgame 3y ago
Well...they do mess up group chats, and images and other basic features usually don't work the best, so...what's wrong with this criticism? I'm sure Google could figure out how to make it play along nicer (they already implemented reactions, so don’t give me bullshit telling me they can’t improve it more) or - better yet, create a more solid alternative. That's not really Apple's job. They made a superior piece of software and reasonably want to use it to encourage people to their platform. You might not like it - but it is allowed. If you'd like the features Apple offers, you're welcome to move to their platform. :P No different than if you'd legally like to watch Star Wars at home, you'll need Disney+. Disney isn't somehow required to also offer it on Netflix. :P It's called a feature of the platform. If you'd like that feature, use that platform. Your cousin doesn't have D+? Well, I guess y'all aren't chatting about the new episode of 'Andor' that dropped that week. They don't have an iPhone? Guess y'all have to deal with green bubbles. That's part of how platforms - necessarily - differentiate themselves from one another to encourage users to them, just like console exclusives. When I was a kid, if you liked Sonic, you had a SEGA. If you liked Mario, you had a Nintendo. Nobody in the world in the 90’s was expecting a Sonic game on a Nintendo console or vice versa. I don’t know what changed that people are suddenly freaking out about this, lol. It shouldn’t have to be explained in a group as highly intelligent as this one that this is simply basic anti-competitive practice. If iMessage was everywhere it would be a monopoly and y’all would be clamouring for some alternative anyway. :P There’s literally just no pleasing some of you, lol.
- pathartl 3y ago
  Group chats are fine as long as other people in the group are using Android. Yes, this is how ridiculous the Apple ecosystem sounds from the outside.
  - CharlesW 3y ago
    iPhone user here. Nearly all the group chats I’m in include Android users. It works fine.
    - nickthegreek 3y ago
      until someone sends a video.
      - CharlesW 3y ago
        MMS supports video, just very poorly, so one makes that mistake once and then learns to send links to YouTube, Twitter, Reddit, or whatever. IMHO that's vastly preferable anyway.
  - similetimes 3y ago
    [dead]
  - lostgame 3y ago
    Makes total and complete sense, and seems absolutely anti-ridiculous. Group chats also work fine if we’re all using Messenger - group chats work just fine if we are all using Signal - it’s almost as if software works as expected if it’s being used as expected. Mind blowing, I know. There is no other major chat platform that offers interoperability with services the platform owner does not own. (Messenger and Instagram just got some sort of interoperability, but since they are both Meta properties, it only helps prove my point.) What’s beyond ridiculous is to expect a SEGA Genesis cartridge to just run, unmodified on an SNES, which is what you’re demanding, here. Yeah, a group game of Super Mario Kart 64 works awesomely on an actual N64 with a real cartridge and four controllers - but hey, why doesn’t it work the same on my PS1? Well, fuck Nintendo for not opening up their game to other platforms! They have awful business practices! … …now that’s ridiculous shit, and what you’re almost literally saying; word for word, just with different hardware and software. (The PS1 doesn’t even have 4 controller ports out of the box, even if it could run N64 software unmodified. The PS1 also had its own exclusives and benefits, such as Final Fantasy 7. Both platforms had their advantages and disadvantages. The N64 was far more powerful, but was hampered by cartridges, whereas the PS1 used CD media and could store much more, but push far less polygons.) Why on Earth would it be Nintendo’s responsibility to make sure Kart 64 plays great on a PS1? Isn’t half the point of a first party software release (either Kart 64 or iMessage) to provide a reason for users/players to choose that platform instead of whichever alternative? Should GarageBand/Logic or iMovie/Final Cut suddenly be ported to Windows or Linux as well? At what point does the ridiculous demand for interoperability stop? What do you want, only one monopolistic set of hardware and software for everything?
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  iMessage is an encrypted, closed protocol. So not only would Google have to reverse engineer the protocol, they may have to steal some keys, too.
  - Retric 3y ago
    Or they could actually release better messaging software which people would have adapted.
    - monkeynotes 3y ago
      RCS is good enough to replace key functionality of iMessage and it's a protocol anyone can adopt. I am very satisfied with RCS on Android.
      - jandrewrogers 3y ago
        Any messaging protocol that puts the mobile telecoms as the operator and man-in-the-middle, like RCS, is a terrible idea. It would be like putting Comcast in charge of the Internet. I can think of few companies I trust less with critical app infrastructure.
        monkeynotes 3y ago
        Erm, SMS has been solid for decades. RCS is end to end encrypted. It's not a "terrible" idea and it's nothing like putting Comcast in charge of the internet, that's just hyperbole.
        wkat4242 3y ago
        It's still a protocol that was designed specifically to have the Telco take an active role in the message handling again, something that they lost with the decline of SMS. Personally I'm very happy for my Telco to just be a dumb pipe that supplies internet bits. Especially because that means I can get at my bits anywhere, not just on blessed networks. They're not however, they want lucrative "value add" features. Features that will have all sorts of strings attached. But anyway, luckily RCS is dead. I'm not sure how they thought marketing "RCS" against WhatsApp could possibly work. Sure SMS was also a complex acronym but it only took off because there was nothing else. Acronyms are eschewed now by the mainstream. And even as a tech person I'm really happy not having to say "double you double you double you" anymore.
- politelemon 3y ago
  Unsure if you're being obtuse or sarcastic. However in case this is an actual reply, there are a lot of things wrong with it - they produce a closed ecosystem and deliberately hobble interoperability. These kinds of tactics are called platform abuse, but they have also conditioned a sizeable chunk of the population to consider it, and the ensuing behaviors, completely acceptable and moral. If anything, users should be asking for better interoperability, but the fact that I regularly see comments like yours makes me realize that their corporate brainwashing is successful, and secondly, glad that I do not live in that country.
  - nemothekid 3y ago
    What I think is missed in this conversation is that this behavior seems to be almost exclusive to America as the rest of the world has moved onto WhatsApp. The "blue bubble" rants, to me are like complaining that google's messenger doesn't work with WhatsApp. I'm not sympathetic to Google here. They shit the bed on messaging for years, and now Apple must open up.
  - pb7 3y ago
    A few questions: 1) Who is being abused? The platform? Can you elaborate? 2) Can you give an example of the corporate brainwashing you’re referring to? 3) What are you glad about specifically?
  - Klonoar 3y ago
    It is not corporate brainwashing to simply want shit to “just work”. OP is rightfully pointing out that this is Google’s problem to solve.
    - vetinari 3y ago
      Why it would be it only Google's problem to solve? There are several companies that already solved it, the world moved on, but only certain groups are harping on Apple and Google, nothing else. Why? Just use something else, Whatsapp, Signal, Telegram, they all work beautifully and are significantly popular.
- Reptur 3y ago
  Cannot tell if this is satire. But if you're serious: https://www.theverge.com/2022/9/8/23343336/apple-tim-cook-imessage-blue-green-bubbles-texting-rcs https://www.theverge.com/2022/9/8/23343336/apple-tim-cook-im... This issue only exists because Apple stubbornly refuses to join the standard because showcasing how bad Android functions in iPhone Group chats sells iPhones. If they joined, everyone would have the same functionality, but basing the decision purely on money means that'll never happen.
- monkeynotes 3y ago
  > I'm sure Google could figure out how to make it play along nicer. Nope, Apple intentionally blocks anything like this to encourage people to buy iPhones. Basically what is happening is intentional.
- _ea1k 3y ago
  Apple's messaging protocol makes that impossible. It is intentional vendor lockin.
chomp 3y ago
Google's messaging experience has been incoherent until the last couple of years. I switched long before that partially because of how awful the experience was, not because of blue bubbles. Whenever I ask someone the point of using Android, I always get back an answer of "oh, it's because it prioritizes user choice, I can sideload APKs, it's cheap" or something along those lines. But I'm old, I just want a device that mostly works and nothing more than that, and Android (historically) hasn't been it. Worth noting that my iPhone 8 plus still receives updates, a support cycle that long is something unheard of in Android circles.
- ChuckNorris89 3y ago
  There's cross platform messengers like Signal. In EU most population uses WhatsApp as it's the most populat cross platform messenger here and if a first party experience for bot Android and iOS users without any bubble discrimination. Why is Apple or Google the only messaging option for you? Those are not the only services on the market. I feel like you're missing the forest from the trees here.
  - Klonoar 3y ago
    If they’re discussing the bubbles issue, then the existence of Signal/etc is somewhat irrelevant. It’s a social problem, not a technical one - and that friends group is on the blue bubble train.
    - ChuckNorris89 3y ago
      Yes, the bubble issue does not exist if we use cross platform messaging apps. Nobody is forced to use iMessage. It' mostly an US issue. Europeans, latin Americans and other large demographics, don't have the bubbles struggle because people don't default to iMessage but cross platform messaging platform to not discriminate anyone. Crazy, I know.
      - Klonoar 3y ago
        I know. I have lived outside the USA and this is not lost on me. You are missing the point though. The social issue exists in the USA and that is what they're complaining about. It does not matter what the rest of the world does when this thread is based on that - in a thread about US iPhone market share, no less. Cross-platform-apps would've been the solution for this already if they had any shot of doing so.
nr2x 3y ago
Google shit the bed on messaging so badly it became an evergreen meme internally. This is 100% self inflected damage and they should have stuck with the original open/source based gchat. They went propriety and played themselves. Also, most Googlers in the US use iPhone for personal and corp.
- TMWNN 3y ago
  >Also, most Googlers in the US use iPhone for personal and corp. Is this why (as I understand it) Google has historically launched new apps/features on iOS first? I know firsthand that this is true for Google Voice (including before, during, and after the lengthy detour to Hangouts).
  - RestlessMind 3y ago
    Ads get higher CPCs / CVVs on iPhone. Much higher compared to Android, when everything else is the same (country, gender, etc). If I were to pick one reason for iOS-first strategy, that would be it.
  - nr2x 3y ago
    AFAIK it’s totally separate teams. Internally it’s well known that most Google apps work better on iPhone than Pixel. I don’t think it’s intentional, it’s just harder to provide a consistent bug-free experience on Android, even for Google’s own flagship device.
_ea1k 3y ago
This is exactly what I've seen as well. There's huge peer pressure to conform based purely upon messaging nonstandards.
- lockhouse 3y ago
  Maybe for teenagers. I have yet to meet anyone over the age of 16 who cares what color their "bubble" is. iMessage is good, but I would never pick my phone based on it. My work issued phone is an iPhone 11, which was released in 2019. It is running the latest version of iOS and it is still buttery smooth and a joy to use. The equivalent Android phones released in 2019 would be a Samsung Galaxy S10 (last update was to Android 12) or a Pixel 4 (last update was Android 13).
  - vetinari 3y ago
    I'm using Galaxy S10, and I'm not bothered that it runs Android 12 and not 13. It was updated over several releases, and I cannot tell the difference, except some cosmetic changes. What is a crucial difference between Android and iOS: older Android releases do have updates for all apps, including those, that in iOS are bound to the system release, like the browser. So even old Android are getting current Chrome (or Firefox, if that's your choice), mail client, calendar, etc. With Android, new system release for existing device is just a number, as none of the critical apps are bound to it.
    - lockhouse 3y ago
      The big difference is security updates. I get every security update that Apple releases, on day one. Android users get whatever security updates their vendor decides to back port and their phone carrier decides to allow if the phone is carrier locked. The modularity of Android helps a lot but there are still important security advisories for the core OS that go unpatched on users phones.
  - _ea1k 3y ago
    I haven't used a Pixel 4, but my daily is a Pixel 5 that isn't really much more advanced. Its still pretty quick and very usable, and the battery has held up really well. Everyone tells me that there are these mysterious kernel bugs that are super dangerous, but, tbh, I have yet to see evidence of that. The more important app layer still sees many updates, including a lot of key system components.
jandrewrogers 3y ago
I use many of the popular messaging apps regularly. In my experience, iMessage is unquestionably the highest quality and most reliable messaging app I use, everything else is a downgrade. Some people may care about blue bubbles, but most people just want messaging that doesn’t suck or randomly fail at its core purpose. If people want to compete with Apple on iMessage, they need to offer a product that isn’t obviously inferior. The longer they wait, the harder it will be to displace iMessage in the iOS environment.

by cs702 3y ago

lostgame 3y ago

Well...they do mess up group chats, and images and other basic features usually don't work the best, so...what's wrong with this criticism? I'm sure Google could figure out how to make it play along nicer (they already implemented reactions, so don’t give me bullshit telling me they can’t improve it more) or - better yet, create a more solid alternative. That's not really Apple's job. They made a superior piece of software and reasonably want to use it to encourage people to their platform. You might not like it - but it is allowed. If you'd like the features Apple offers, you're welcome to move to their platform. :P No different than if you'd legally like to watch Star Wars at home, you'll need Disney+. Disney isn't somehow required to also offer it on Netflix. :P It's called a feature of the platform. If you'd like that feature, use that platform. Your cousin doesn't have D+? Well, I guess y'all aren't chatting about the new episode of 'Andor' that dropped that week. They don't have an iPhone? Guess y'all have to deal with green bubbles. That's part of how platforms - necessarily - differentiate themselves from one another to encourage users to them, just like console exclusives. When I was a kid, if you liked Sonic, you had a SEGA. If you liked Mario, you had a Nintendo. Nobody in the world in the 90’s was expecting a Sonic game on a Nintendo console or vice versa. I don’t know what changed that people are suddenly freaking out about this, lol. It shouldn’t have to be explained in a group as highly intelligent as this one that this is simply basic anti-competitive practice. If iMessage was everywhere it would be a monopoly and y’all would be clamouring for some alternative anyway. :P There’s literally just no pleasing some of you, lol.

pathartl 3y ago
Group chats are fine as long as other people in the group are using Android. Yes, this is how ridiculous the Apple ecosystem sounds from the outside.
- CharlesW 3y ago
  iPhone user here. Nearly all the group chats I’m in include Android users. It works fine.
  - nickthegreek 3y ago
    until someone sends a video.
    - CharlesW 3y ago
      MMS supports video, just very poorly, so one makes that mistake once and then learns to send links to YouTube, Twitter, Reddit, or whatever. IMHO that's vastly preferable anyway.
- similetimes 3y ago
  [dead]
- lostgame 3y ago
  Makes total and complete sense, and seems absolutely anti-ridiculous. Group chats also work fine if we’re all using Messenger - group chats work just fine if we are all using Signal - it’s almost as if software works as expected if it’s being used as expected. Mind blowing, I know. There is no other major chat platform that offers interoperability with services the platform owner does not own. (Messenger and Instagram just got some sort of interoperability, but since they are both Meta properties, it only helps prove my point.) What’s beyond ridiculous is to expect a SEGA Genesis cartridge to just run, unmodified on an SNES, which is what you’re demanding, here. Yeah, a group game of Super Mario Kart 64 works awesomely on an actual N64 with a real cartridge and four controllers - but hey, why doesn’t it work the same on my PS1? Well, fuck Nintendo for not opening up their game to other platforms! They have awful business practices! … …now that’s ridiculous shit, and what you’re almost literally saying; word for word, just with different hardware and software. (The PS1 doesn’t even have 4 controller ports out of the box, even if it could run N64 software unmodified. The PS1 also had its own exclusives and benefits, such as Final Fantasy 7. Both platforms had their advantages and disadvantages. The N64 was far more powerful, but was hampered by cartridges, whereas the PS1 used CD media and could store much more, but push far less polygons.) Why on Earth would it be Nintendo’s responsibility to make sure Kart 64 plays great on a PS1? Isn’t half the point of a first party software release (either Kart 64 or iMessage) to provide a reason for users/players to choose that platform instead of whichever alternative? Should GarageBand/Logic or iMovie/Final Cut suddenly be ported to Windows or Linux as well? At what point does the ridiculous demand for interoperability stop? What do you want, only one monopolistic set of hardware and software for everything?
bryanlarsen 3y ago
iMessage is an encrypted, closed protocol. So not only would Google have to reverse engineer the protocol, they may have to steal some keys, too.
- Retric 3y ago
  Or they could actually release better messaging software which people would have adapted.
  - monkeynotes 3y ago
    RCS is good enough to replace key functionality of iMessage and it's a protocol anyone can adopt. I am very satisfied with RCS on Android.
    - jandrewrogers 3y ago
      Any messaging protocol that puts the mobile telecoms as the operator and man-in-the-middle, like RCS, is a terrible idea. It would be like putting Comcast in charge of the Internet. I can think of few companies I trust less with critical app infrastructure.
      - monkeynotes 3y ago
        Erm, SMS has been solid for decades. RCS is end to end encrypted. It's not a "terrible" idea and it's nothing like putting Comcast in charge of the internet, that's just hyperbole.
        wkat4242 3y ago
        It's still a protocol that was designed specifically to have the Telco take an active role in the message handling again, something that they lost with the decline of SMS. Personally I'm very happy for my Telco to just be a dumb pipe that supplies internet bits. Especially because that means I can get at my bits anywhere, not just on blessed networks. They're not however, they want lucrative "value add" features. Features that will have all sorts of strings attached. But anyway, luckily RCS is dead. I'm not sure how they thought marketing "RCS" against WhatsApp could possibly work. Sure SMS was also a complex acronym but it only took off because there was nothing else. Acronyms are eschewed now by the mainstream. And even as a tech person I'm really happy not having to say "double you double you double you" anymore.
politelemon 3y ago
Unsure if you're being obtuse or sarcastic. However in case this is an actual reply, there are a lot of things wrong with it - they produce a closed ecosystem and deliberately hobble interoperability. These kinds of tactics are called platform abuse, but they have also conditioned a sizeable chunk of the population to consider it, and the ensuing behaviors, completely acceptable and moral. If anything, users should be asking for better interoperability, but the fact that I regularly see comments like yours makes me realize that their corporate brainwashing is successful, and secondly, glad that I do not live in that country.
- nemothekid 3y ago
  What I think is missed in this conversation is that this behavior seems to be almost exclusive to America as the rest of the world has moved onto WhatsApp. The "blue bubble" rants, to me are like complaining that google's messenger doesn't work with WhatsApp. I'm not sympathetic to Google here. They shit the bed on messaging for years, and now Apple must open up.
- pb7 3y ago
  A few questions: 1) Who is being abused? The platform? Can you elaborate? 2) Can you give an example of the corporate brainwashing you’re referring to? 3) What are you glad about specifically?
- Klonoar 3y ago
  It is not corporate brainwashing to simply want shit to “just work”. OP is rightfully pointing out that this is Google’s problem to solve.
  - vetinari 3y ago
    Why it would be it only Google's problem to solve? There are several companies that already solved it, the world moved on, but only certain groups are harping on Apple and Google, nothing else. Why? Just use something else, Whatsapp, Signal, Telegram, they all work beautifully and are significantly popular.
Reptur 3y ago
Cannot tell if this is satire. But if you're serious: https://www.theverge.com/2022/9/8/23343336/apple-tim-cook-imessage-blue-green-bubbles-texting-rcs https://www.theverge.com/2022/9/8/23343336/apple-tim-cook-im... This issue only exists because Apple stubbornly refuses to join the standard because showcasing how bad Android functions in iPhone Group chats sells iPhones. If they joined, everyone would have the same functionality, but basing the decision purely on money means that'll never happen.
monkeynotes 3y ago
> I'm sure Google could figure out how to make it play along nicer. Nope, Apple intentionally blocks anything like this to encourage people to buy iPhones. Basically what is happening is intentional.
_ea1k 3y ago
Apple's messaging protocol makes that impossible. It is intentional vendor lockin.

chomp 3y ago

Google's messaging experience has been incoherent until the last couple of years. I switched long before that partially because of how awful the experience was, not because of blue bubbles. Whenever I ask someone the point of using Android, I always get back an answer of "oh, it's because it prioritizes user choice, I can sideload APKs, it's cheap" or something along those lines. But I'm old, I just want a device that mostly works and nothing more than that, and Android (historically) hasn't been it. Worth noting that my iPhone 8 plus still receives updates, a support cycle that long is something unheard of in Android circles.

ChuckNorris89 3y ago
There's cross platform messengers like Signal. In EU most population uses WhatsApp as it's the most populat cross platform messenger here and if a first party experience for bot Android and iOS users without any bubble discrimination. Why is Apple or Google the only messaging option for you? Those are not the only services on the market. I feel like you're missing the forest from the trees here.
- Klonoar 3y ago
  If they’re discussing the bubbles issue, then the existence of Signal/etc is somewhat irrelevant. It’s a social problem, not a technical one - and that friends group is on the blue bubble train.
  - ChuckNorris89 3y ago
    Yes, the bubble issue does not exist if we use cross platform messaging apps. Nobody is forced to use iMessage. It' mostly an US issue. Europeans, latin Americans and other large demographics, don't have the bubbles struggle because people don't default to iMessage but cross platform messaging platform to not discriminate anyone. Crazy, I know.
    - Klonoar 3y ago
      I know. I have lived outside the USA and this is not lost on me. You are missing the point though. The social issue exists in the USA and that is what they're complaining about. It does not matter what the rest of the world does when this thread is based on that - in a thread about US iPhone market share, no less. Cross-platform-apps would've been the solution for this already if they had any shot of doing so.

nr2x 3y ago

Google shit the bed on messaging so badly it became an evergreen meme internally. This is 100% self inflected damage and they should have stuck with the original open/source based gchat. They went propriety and played themselves. Also, most Googlers in the US use iPhone for personal and corp.

TMWNN 3y ago
>Also, most Googlers in the US use iPhone for personal and corp. Is this why (as I understand it) Google has historically launched new apps/features on iOS first? I know firsthand that this is true for Google Voice (including before, during, and after the lengthy detour to Hangouts).
- RestlessMind 3y ago
  Ads get higher CPCs / CVVs on iPhone. Much higher compared to Android, when everything else is the same (country, gender, etc). If I were to pick one reason for iOS-first strategy, that would be it.
- nr2x 3y ago
  AFAIK it’s totally separate teams. Internally it’s well known that most Google apps work better on iPhone than Pixel. I don’t think it’s intentional, it’s just harder to provide a consistent bug-free experience on Android, even for Google’s own flagship device.

_ea1k 3y ago

This is exactly what I've seen as well. There's huge peer pressure to conform based purely upon messaging nonstandards.

lockhouse 3y ago
Maybe for teenagers. I have yet to meet anyone over the age of 16 who cares what color their "bubble" is. iMessage is good, but I would never pick my phone based on it. My work issued phone is an iPhone 11, which was released in 2019. It is running the latest version of iOS and it is still buttery smooth and a joy to use. The equivalent Android phones released in 2019 would be a Samsung Galaxy S10 (last update was to Android 12) or a Pixel 4 (last update was Android 13).
- vetinari 3y ago
  I'm using Galaxy S10, and I'm not bothered that it runs Android 12 and not 13. It was updated over several releases, and I cannot tell the difference, except some cosmetic changes. What is a crucial difference between Android and iOS: older Android releases do have updates for all apps, including those, that in iOS are bound to the system release, like the browser. So even old Android are getting current Chrome (or Firefox, if that's your choice), mail client, calendar, etc. With Android, new system release for existing device is just a number, as none of the critical apps are bound to it.
  - lockhouse 3y ago
    The big difference is security updates. I get every security update that Apple releases, on day one. Android users get whatever security updates their vendor decides to back port and their phone carrier decides to allow if the phone is carrier locked. The modularity of Android helps a lot but there are still important security advisories for the core OS that go unpatched on users phones.
- _ea1k 3y ago
  I haven't used a Pixel 4, but my daily is a Pixel 5 that isn't really much more advanced. Its still pretty quick and very usable, and the battery has held up really well. Everyone tells me that there are these mysterious kernel bugs that are super dangerous, but, tbh, I have yet to see evidence of that. The more important app layer still sees many updates, including a lot of key system components.

jandrewrogers 3y ago

I use many of the popular messaging apps regularly. In my experience, iMessage is unquestionably the highest quality and most reliable messaging app I use, everything else is a downgrade. Some people may care about blue bubbles, but most people just want messaging that doesn’t suck or randomly fail at its core purpose. If people want to compete with Apple on iMessage, they need to offer a product that isn’t obviously inferior. The longer they wait, the harder it will be to displace iMessage in the iOS environment.