8 ms·

> I don't care about the products we build for someone else (why should I?) I mean, this obviously depends on the kind of product - is it some biotech to make

> I don't care about the products we build for someone else (why should I?) I mean, this obviously depends on the kind of product - is it some biotech to make someone's life better, or is it a gambling website tuned to suck the most out of whales? As engineers we're much better placed than most people to do something meaningful with our work, and sticking with a job where you don't see that value is a pity. But if you just don't care about building something for someone else... maybe you should change that? As you say, there's little choice in whether you have to do it (unless you win the lottery or something), why not make a goal out of it and get some enjoyment out.

badpun 3y ago
> As you say, there's little choice in whether you have to do it (unless you win the lottery or something) With some frugality and smart money management, you can retire in 5-10 years if you're on a dev salary.
- nly 3y ago
  Frugality is an understatement on that timeline. To retire in 10 years you're going to have to be able to live comfortably on something like 1/3rd of your take home pay. No employer is going to pay you 3x what your nearest peer is willing to live on.
  - Jach 3y ago
    It's relatively easy for software devs to live comfortably on $50k and make $150k+.
    - jacobyoder 3y ago
      Can confirm. Have done this for the last several years. Wife stopped working a few years back due to an injury (but no disability or other income for better or worse), so I've been the sole breadwinner the last few years. I've typically been bringing in between $150k and $220k (gross), and we've spent most of the last ... 7-8 years not doing or buying much. Min obligations each month are now around $3000/month (mortgage, utilities, food, insurance), so there's been a bunch of savings. I can't retire and never have to work again, but I'm slowing down a bit, and spending more time not earning money (gym, reading, travel, etc). On second though, if I absolutely needed to, we could probably 'retire' tomorrow, and do a bit more belt-tightening - savings/investments would last probably another 10-12 years without any major changes to lifestyle, then could collect social security. But that's... not something I want to do. I like doing most of what I'm doing, and am just being a bit choosier about what I do now. EDIT: no kids, semi-rural southern US. EDIT 2: Moderately high, but irregular, income from consulting/contract dev/tech work. Not W2.
      - throwaway2037 3y ago
        $150k and $220k (gross) + semi-rural southern US. Impressive!
        jacobyoder 3y ago
        Selling time (hourly), I can't keep it up forever, and 10 years ago it was more like $100-$120k. I already see this year slowing down some, but it might be back to more like $120k, but on a part time effort, which will be nice in its own way. I was regularly putting in 50+ hours/week, and it's just not something I could maintain long term.
    - nly 3y ago
      Maybe in the US. Maybe. Here in the UK, after tax, $50K/yr doesn't even cover my mortgage, and I live in a house that over 100 years ago, according to the 1911 census, supported a family of 5 on a carriage drivers single income. I earn a top 1% salary as a dev and retirement will still be 20-25 years away for me under ideal conditions - i.e. a 40% savings rate.
      - badpun 3y ago
        I'm guessing a bus driver in 1911 was kind of a high skill job, sort of like software development is now. How many people could drive a car back then, let alone a bus?
        nly 3y ago
        Omnibus (i.e. carriage) driver.
        TylerE 3y ago
        Carriage as in the horse drawn variety
      - Jach 3y ago
        My condolences, outside the US is definitely harder. At least you can still invest in the S&P 500.
      - ZephyrBlu 3y ago
        What's a top 1% salary in the UK?
        nly 3y ago
        This will give you an idea. https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/percentile-points-from-1-to-99-for-total-income-before-and-after-tax https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/percentile-points-f... In US terms somewhere around $240K USD, before tax.
        3y ago
    - BeFlatXIII 3y ago
      If they have their mortgage already paid off, yes, very much so.
  - badpun 3y ago
    > To retire in 10 years you're going to have to be able to live comfortably on something like 1/3rd of your take home pay. That's very easy if you don't have kids - just don't get on a hedonic threadmill (and, if you're already on it, start gradually getting off). I'm not a parent myself, so won't speak about the "with kids" situation.
    - nly 3y ago
      Rent isnt a "hedonic treadmill". Neither is food or energy. These are the 3 areas seeing the most inflation right now. Rents in London are up 20% in a year, food almost the same, and energy ...well, everyone knows what has happened to energy. The average Londoner is paying almost 40% of their take home pay on rent, so saving 2/3rds is already impossible. Even as one of the lucky ones earning a top 1% salary, I _still_ pay 40% of my take home pay on a mortgage with a 33 year mortgage term! Your idea of getting off the treadmill must be living in the countryside and taking a 80% pay cut, I suppose? Before coming to London I was doing an equally demanding role on 20% of my current pay. Or how about raising a family in a 1 bedroom flat? - i see loads of people doing that these days. My old neighbours both had full time well paid jobs and were still in a 1 bed with a newborn. There's no real escape. The economy is a dog, and we are all underpaid.
      - jacobyoder 3y ago
        Wife is from UK, but we're in the US now. She's got some friends/family there, and we keep up with some news/sports/TV from the UK regularly. Have watched some recent reports about how dire some things have gotten over the last year or two. Things are 'bad' all over, but the UK seems to have been hit doubly/triply hard compared to some neighbors, esp with energy prices. Unsure how much brexit is a root cause, but between brexit/covid/ukraine, UK seems to be in a bad spot. Sorry you're dealing with so much that's beyond your control. I completely get this is well beyond "don't eat out as much" territory.
      - eertami 3y ago
        Yeah. London is great when young and going out to do things all the time, sucks later on though. In London I definitely felt like I was living paycheck to paycheck, but moving to a European city with better services (but probably less culture), rent for our 3br flat in the city center was cheaper than our 1 bed in zone 6 - and taxes are much lower. Now 9% of my takehome goes on rent, and I have no idea how I could ever go back to the UK. The energy bills alone are mind boggling, and every time I visit it just feels like it slips further and further behind the times.
- fwip 3y ago
  Depends on where you are and where you work. FAANG devs in a big city, sure, but not a dev working on payroll software in Podunkus, Idaho.
- j7ake 3y ago
  This means delaying starting a family, and those previous years 10 years is vital for fertility as well, which discriminates against women.
  - fsckboy 3y ago
    men making a choice to save money and retire after a short career necessarily would create employment opportunities for women

badpun 3y ago

> As you say, there's little choice in whether you have to do it (unless you win the lottery or something) With some frugality and smart money management, you can retire in 5-10 years if you're on a dev salary.

nly 3y ago
Frugality is an understatement on that timeline. To retire in 10 years you're going to have to be able to live comfortably on something like 1/3rd of your take home pay. No employer is going to pay you 3x what your nearest peer is willing to live on.
- Jach 3y ago
  It's relatively easy for software devs to live comfortably on $50k and make $150k+.
  - jacobyoder 3y ago
    Can confirm. Have done this for the last several years. Wife stopped working a few years back due to an injury (but no disability or other income for better or worse), so I've been the sole breadwinner the last few years. I've typically been bringing in between $150k and $220k (gross), and we've spent most of the last ... 7-8 years not doing or buying much. Min obligations each month are now around $3000/month (mortgage, utilities, food, insurance), so there's been a bunch of savings. I can't retire and never have to work again, but I'm slowing down a bit, and spending more time not earning money (gym, reading, travel, etc). On second though, if I absolutely needed to, we could probably 'retire' tomorrow, and do a bit more belt-tightening - savings/investments would last probably another 10-12 years without any major changes to lifestyle, then could collect social security. But that's... not something I want to do. I like doing most of what I'm doing, and am just being a bit choosier about what I do now. EDIT: no kids, semi-rural southern US. EDIT 2: Moderately high, but irregular, income from consulting/contract dev/tech work. Not W2.
    - throwaway2037 3y ago
      $150k and $220k (gross) + semi-rural southern US. Impressive!
      - jacobyoder 3y ago
        Selling time (hourly), I can't keep it up forever, and 10 years ago it was more like $100-$120k. I already see this year slowing down some, but it might be back to more like $120k, but on a part time effort, which will be nice in its own way. I was regularly putting in 50+ hours/week, and it's just not something I could maintain long term.
  - nly 3y ago
    Maybe in the US. Maybe. Here in the UK, after tax, $50K/yr doesn't even cover my mortgage, and I live in a house that over 100 years ago, according to the 1911 census, supported a family of 5 on a carriage drivers single income. I earn a top 1% salary as a dev and retirement will still be 20-25 years away for me under ideal conditions - i.e. a 40% savings rate.
    - badpun 3y ago
      I'm guessing a bus driver in 1911 was kind of a high skill job, sort of like software development is now. How many people could drive a car back then, let alone a bus?
      - nly 3y ago
        Omnibus (i.e. carriage) driver.
      - TylerE 3y ago
        Carriage as in the horse drawn variety
    - Jach 3y ago
      My condolences, outside the US is definitely harder. At least you can still invest in the S&P 500.
    - ZephyrBlu 3y ago
      What's a top 1% salary in the UK?
      - nly 3y ago
        This will give you an idea. https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/percentile-points-from-1-to-99-for-total-income-before-and-after-tax https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/percentile-points-f... In US terms somewhere around $240K USD, before tax.
        3y ago
  - BeFlatXIII 3y ago
    If they have their mortgage already paid off, yes, very much so.
- badpun 3y ago
  > To retire in 10 years you're going to have to be able to live comfortably on something like 1/3rd of your take home pay. That's very easy if you don't have kids - just don't get on a hedonic threadmill (and, if you're already on it, start gradually getting off). I'm not a parent myself, so won't speak about the "with kids" situation.
  - nly 3y ago
    Rent isnt a "hedonic treadmill". Neither is food or energy. These are the 3 areas seeing the most inflation right now. Rents in London are up 20% in a year, food almost the same, and energy ...well, everyone knows what has happened to energy. The average Londoner is paying almost 40% of their take home pay on rent, so saving 2/3rds is already impossible. Even as one of the lucky ones earning a top 1% salary, I _still_ pay 40% of my take home pay on a mortgage with a 33 year mortgage term! Your idea of getting off the treadmill must be living in the countryside and taking a 80% pay cut, I suppose? Before coming to London I was doing an equally demanding role on 20% of my current pay. Or how about raising a family in a 1 bedroom flat? - i see loads of people doing that these days. My old neighbours both had full time well paid jobs and were still in a 1 bed with a newborn. There's no real escape. The economy is a dog, and we are all underpaid.
    - jacobyoder 3y ago
      Wife is from UK, but we're in the US now. She's got some friends/family there, and we keep up with some news/sports/TV from the UK regularly. Have watched some recent reports about how dire some things have gotten over the last year or two. Things are 'bad' all over, but the UK seems to have been hit doubly/triply hard compared to some neighbors, esp with energy prices. Unsure how much brexit is a root cause, but between brexit/covid/ukraine, UK seems to be in a bad spot. Sorry you're dealing with so much that's beyond your control. I completely get this is well beyond "don't eat out as much" territory.
    - eertami 3y ago
      Yeah. London is great when young and going out to do things all the time, sucks later on though. In London I definitely felt like I was living paycheck to paycheck, but moving to a European city with better services (but probably less culture), rent for our 3br flat in the city center was cheaper than our 1 bed in zone 6 - and taxes are much lower. Now 9% of my takehome goes on rent, and I have no idea how I could ever go back to the UK. The energy bills alone are mind boggling, and every time I visit it just feels like it slips further and further behind the times.
fwip 3y ago
Depends on where you are and where you work. FAANG devs in a big city, sure, but not a dev working on payroll software in Podunkus, Idaho.
j7ake 3y ago
This means delaying starting a family, and those previous years 10 years is vital for fertility as well, which discriminates against women.
- fsckboy 3y ago
  men making a choice to save money and retire after a short career necessarily would create employment opportunities for women