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>> As with "effective altruism", the whole thing seems like an exercise in rationalizing destructive behavior in the present. The talk of long-term vs short-te

>> As with "effective altruism", the whole thing seems like an exercise in rationalizing destructive behavior in the present. The talk of long-term vs short-term harm does seem like what you say, but Elon wanting to colonized Mars is an example that isn't like that at all and his effort seems to have positive side effects. I see this philosophy more as "I am so self important that I think I can positively influence the course of humanity over the timescale of the universe". The irony of thinking like that while talking about the insignificance of things like WWII is telling. Like dude, you and your philosophy are damn near irrelevant like the rest of us - get some therapy for your existential angst.

surgical_fire 4y ago
> The talk of long-term vs short-term harm does seem like what you say, but Elon wanting to colonized Mars is an example that isn't like that at all and his effort seems to have positive side effects. "Nothing beside remains. Round the decay of that colossal wreck, Boundless and bare The lone and level sands stretch far away.”
- oxfeed65261 4y ago
  https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46565/ozymandias https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46565/ozymandias: Ozymandias By Percy Byesshe Shelley I met a traveller from an antique land, Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand, Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown, And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command, Tell that its sculptor well those passions read Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things, The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed; And on the pedestal, these words appear: My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings; Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair! Nothing beside remains. Round the decay Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare The lone and level sands stretch far away.”
  - epiccoleman 3y ago
    I met a traveller from way the hell off who said: two gigantic, fucked-up rock legs be out there in the middle of goddamn nowhere right next to them covered in shit some kinda big face looked pretty pissed & upset & whatnot all damn covered in words “yo ozymandias here, this my shit” “better than your shit, get fucked buddy” not much else tho, just sand shitloads of sand all over the place
BerislavLopac 4y ago
> Elon wanting to colonized Mars is an example that isn't like that at all and his effort seems to have positive side effects Everything can, to some extent, have some positive side effects. But keep in mind what is the real reason why Elon (and other libertarians) are so interested in colonising Mars - as opposed to exploring other, and much closer, "undiscovered countries", like Antarctica or the ocean floor: the existing legal systems do not reach there, or if they do it's very difficult to enforce them. Their idea is to create a "libertarian paradise" where they would define the rules of the society. I mean, it has zero chance of working the way they envision it, but they envision it nonetheless.
- xboxnolifes 3y ago
  Or they just think space is cool.
- rzzzt 3y ago
  I thought the interest revolved largely around space mines and industry. Helium, solid gold asteroids, etc.
- DennisP 3y ago
  As a life-long space buff, no that's not the reason at all. The solar system can support a vastly greater civilization than our little planet, with millions of times the resources available and no existing ecosystems to screw up (that we know of so far). Antarctica does not compare.
  - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
    Earth's ecosystem can only absorb the side-effect of so many spaceflights per year. It's one thing to advance the state-of-the-art of space travel vehicles, it's another thing to plan on colonizing the solar system with the equivalent of coal-burning, soot-emitting, 19th century locomotives. Billions of people could live in habitats in orbit around Earth, while mining local asteroids or the moon. Targeting one of the deepest gravity wells in the inner solar system doesn't seem like a good first step.
danaris 3y ago
See, the idea of exploring and colonizing Mars is not a bad one. But from everything Elon has said on the subject, it's very clear that what he means when he talks about it and what I mean when I talk about it are not the same thing. What I mean when I say "exploring and colonizing Mars": - Do basic scientific research to understand Mars better - Learn how to better survive in environments that are hostile to human life - Work toward being able to create fully self-sustaining colonies of humans offworld, as an (eventual) hedge against problems on Earth (eg, massive meteor strike, nuclear winter, etc) What Elon Musk means when he says "exploring and colonizing Mars": - Setting up in a place where no human laws reach - Bringing indentured servants along so that he and his wealthy friends will have people they can effectively own - Making a fully stratified society with himself as the highest stratum
- yamtaddle 3y ago
  > What Elon Musk means when he says "exploring and colonizing Mars": > - Setting up in a place where no human laws reach > - Bringing indentured servants along so that he and his wealthy friends will have people they can effectively own > - Making a fully stratified society with himself as the highest stratum This is probably some variety of horrible -ism but I gotta say that the more exposure I have to expat white South Africans the more I think they shouldn't be allowed to be in charge of... anything. Like you start talking and it's just a matter of time before certain things start to come out.
  - ctoth 3y ago
    So... Because someone else who clearly doesn't like the guy put words in his mouth sans any citation, you think that "expat white South Africans the more I think they shouldn't be allowed to be in charge of... anything." How is any of this thread reasonable?
- DoreenMichele 3y ago
  Is there a succinct source that backs this assertion up? For my edification as someone who has no idea who you are and has paid almost no attention to Elon Musk and his delusions of someday living on Mars but is going "If this is true: light bulb moment!"
PartiallyTyped 3y ago
> and his effort seems to have positive side effects. One hour weapon delivery anywhere on earth is not exactly a positive side-effect. https://www.businessinsider.com/musks-spacex-partners-us-military-to-deliver-weapons-by-rockets-2020-10?IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/musks-spacex-partners-us-mil...
- phkahler 3y ago
  Starlink providing internet service everywhere on the planet is a positive side effect. Drastically low cost of getting things to orbit is a more direct effect. One hour weapon delivery has been around for decades - see ICBM
rtkwe 3y ago
Starship isn't the ticket to colonizing Mars despite the hype. They're just not big enough to bring the people and the goods they would need to even tenuously subsist for a few months at least not the 100 per ship Musk claims would be possible.
- enslavedrobot 3y ago
  At 10$/kg to LEO it most definitely is, despite the thuderfoot videos.
  - rtkwe 3y ago
    Cost to orbit isn't the only issue, maybe as part of building something else but actually shipping 100 people to Mars on Starship is wildly impractical. First big hurdle is actually getting the Eyes Wide Shut refueling to work and you have to do it multiple times for each Starship you're sending. Then there's not that much space in the upper stage of Starships to pack that many people and several months worth of food. It's approaching possible but you'd be jammed in like cordwood not having the time of your life in a big open atrium.
- marssaxman 3y ago
  As I understand the plan, Starship is the ticket to launching incredible numbers of Starlink satellites very cheaply, which will lead to enormous profits, which will fund the development of an even larger successor rocket, which will allow colonization.
  - rtkwe 3y ago
    If that's the plan no one told SpaceX's PR team to use a different rocket design on their pages or Musk himself as recently as 2020. AFAIK he's never said anything about a successor rocket to BFR/Starship being the actual colonization vehicle. https://www.spacex.com/human-spaceflight/mars/ https://www.spacex.com/human-spaceflight/mars/ https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1217990326867988480 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1217990326867988480 https://www.space.com/elon-musk-starship-spacex-flights-mars-colony.html https://www.space.com/elon-musk-starship-spacex-flights-mars...
watwut 3y ago
If anything, Musk activities are exercise in being negative influence while getting all the praise.

surgical_fire 4y ago

> The talk of long-term vs short-term harm does seem like what you say, but Elon wanting to colonized Mars is an example that isn't like that at all and his effort seems to have positive side effects. "Nothing beside remains. Round the decay of that colossal wreck, Boundless and bare The lone and level sands stretch far away.”

oxfeed65261 4y ago
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46565/ozymandias https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46565/ozymandias: Ozymandias By Percy Byesshe Shelley I met a traveller from an antique land, Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand, Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown, And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command, Tell that its sculptor well those passions read Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things, The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed; And on the pedestal, these words appear: My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings; Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair! Nothing beside remains. Round the decay Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare The lone and level sands stretch far away.”
- epiccoleman 3y ago
  I met a traveller from way the hell off who said: two gigantic, fucked-up rock legs be out there in the middle of goddamn nowhere right next to them covered in shit some kinda big face looked pretty pissed & upset & whatnot all damn covered in words “yo ozymandias here, this my shit” “better than your shit, get fucked buddy” not much else tho, just sand shitloads of sand all over the place

BerislavLopac 4y ago

> Elon wanting to colonized Mars is an example that isn't like that at all and his effort seems to have positive side effects Everything can, to some extent, have some positive side effects. But keep in mind what is the real reason why Elon (and other libertarians) are so interested in colonising Mars - as opposed to exploring other, and much closer, "undiscovered countries", like Antarctica or the ocean floor: the existing legal systems do not reach there, or if they do it's very difficult to enforce them. Their idea is to create a "libertarian paradise" where they would define the rules of the society. I mean, it has zero chance of working the way they envision it, but they envision it nonetheless.

xboxnolifes 3y ago
Or they just think space is cool.
rzzzt 3y ago
I thought the interest revolved largely around space mines and industry. Helium, solid gold asteroids, etc.
DennisP 3y ago
As a life-long space buff, no that's not the reason at all. The solar system can support a vastly greater civilization than our little planet, with millions of times the resources available and no existing ecosystems to screw up (that we know of so far). Antarctica does not compare.
- anonymouskimmer 3y ago
  Earth's ecosystem can only absorb the side-effect of so many spaceflights per year. It's one thing to advance the state-of-the-art of space travel vehicles, it's another thing to plan on colonizing the solar system with the equivalent of coal-burning, soot-emitting, 19th century locomotives. Billions of people could live in habitats in orbit around Earth, while mining local asteroids or the moon. Targeting one of the deepest gravity wells in the inner solar system doesn't seem like a good first step.

danaris 3y ago

See, the idea of exploring and colonizing Mars is not a bad one. But from everything Elon has said on the subject, it's very clear that what he means when he talks about it and what I mean when I talk about it are not the same thing. What I mean when I say "exploring and colonizing Mars": - Do basic scientific research to understand Mars better - Learn how to better survive in environments that are hostile to human life - Work toward being able to create fully self-sustaining colonies of humans offworld, as an (eventual) hedge against problems on Earth (eg, massive meteor strike, nuclear winter, etc) What Elon Musk means when he says "exploring and colonizing Mars": - Setting up in a place where no human laws reach - Bringing indentured servants along so that he and his wealthy friends will have people they can effectively own - Making a fully stratified society with himself as the highest stratum

yamtaddle 3y ago
> What Elon Musk means when he says "exploring and colonizing Mars": > - Setting up in a place where no human laws reach > - Bringing indentured servants along so that he and his wealthy friends will have people they can effectively own > - Making a fully stratified society with himself as the highest stratum This is probably some variety of horrible -ism but I gotta say that the more exposure I have to expat white South Africans the more I think they shouldn't be allowed to be in charge of... anything. Like you start talking and it's just a matter of time before certain things start to come out.
- ctoth 3y ago
  So... Because someone else who clearly doesn't like the guy put words in his mouth sans any citation, you think that "expat white South Africans the more I think they shouldn't be allowed to be in charge of... anything." How is any of this thread reasonable?
DoreenMichele 3y ago
Is there a succinct source that backs this assertion up? For my edification as someone who has no idea who you are and has paid almost no attention to Elon Musk and his delusions of someday living on Mars but is going "If this is true: light bulb moment!"

PartiallyTyped 3y ago

> and his effort seems to have positive side effects. One hour weapon delivery anywhere on earth is not exactly a positive side-effect. https://www.businessinsider.com/musks-spacex-partners-us-military-to-deliver-weapons-by-rockets-2020-10?IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/musks-spacex-partners-us-mil...

phkahler 3y ago
Starlink providing internet service everywhere on the planet is a positive side effect. Drastically low cost of getting things to orbit is a more direct effect. One hour weapon delivery has been around for decades - see ICBM

rtkwe 3y ago

Starship isn't the ticket to colonizing Mars despite the hype. They're just not big enough to bring the people and the goods they would need to even tenuously subsist for a few months at least not the 100 per ship Musk claims would be possible.

enslavedrobot 3y ago
At 10$/kg to LEO it most definitely is, despite the thuderfoot videos.
- rtkwe 3y ago
  Cost to orbit isn't the only issue, maybe as part of building something else but actually shipping 100 people to Mars on Starship is wildly impractical. First big hurdle is actually getting the Eyes Wide Shut refueling to work and you have to do it multiple times for each Starship you're sending. Then there's not that much space in the upper stage of Starships to pack that many people and several months worth of food. It's approaching possible but you'd be jammed in like cordwood not having the time of your life in a big open atrium.
marssaxman 3y ago
As I understand the plan, Starship is the ticket to launching incredible numbers of Starlink satellites very cheaply, which will lead to enormous profits, which will fund the development of an even larger successor rocket, which will allow colonization.
- rtkwe 3y ago
  If that's the plan no one told SpaceX's PR team to use a different rocket design on their pages or Musk himself as recently as 2020. AFAIK he's never said anything about a successor rocket to BFR/Starship being the actual colonization vehicle. https://www.spacex.com/human-spaceflight/mars/ https://www.spacex.com/human-spaceflight/mars/ https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1217990326867988480 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1217990326867988480 https://www.space.com/elon-musk-starship-spacex-flights-mars-colony.html https://www.space.com/elon-musk-starship-spacex-flights-mars...

watwut 3y ago

If anything, Musk activities are exercise in being negative influence while getting all the praise.