3 ms·

It's a study of the extent to which people are being screwed over, not sure why you're acting like the fact that, depressingly, it's not surprising is a gotcha.

by swores 3y ago

It's a study of the extent to which people are being screwed over, not sure why you're acting like the fact that, depressingly, it's not surprising is a gotcha. That it is happening means we need the government (or courts, or whatever) to take action to fix it, the fact that this hasn't yet happened means that studies like this are extremely useful.

jjoonathan 3y ago
The "gotcha" isn't aimed at the people doing the study or advocating for change, it's aimed at the apologists who were running around with "everyone is winning" rhetoric. There were plenty of them around here. They were very wrong about something that should have been obvious. This is all going to play out again with AI, but moreso, so it's important to keep score.
- fnimick 3y ago
  They are not wrong. They are lying, and we know they are lying, and they know that we know they are lying, but they have to speak to the pretense of societal good in order to get business and money. Look at SBF's 'effective altruism' schtick to see this in action. Everyone involved knew it was bullshit, but it had to be said to keep the money flowing in.
s1artibartfast 3y ago
This whole topic seems to be unnecessary and stupid. Gig workers should all be sole Proprietors of their own businesses. The only reason they aren't is because governments make it difficult to run your own business. This would solve basically all of the legal and moral problems. Gig workers would be responsible for all of their own benefits, but be able to deduct all of their business costs. They would be responsible for if their own business turns a profit or loss and if they want to continue it.
- SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
  Besides business cost deductions how does this solve the problems? How would having it be a business make it different than the cost benefit they could do right now? I feel like "just make a business" doesn't actually help that much, especially not morally - I'm unsure what that means in this context, or how being a business solves it.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    It solves the problem because there is no expectation to socially ensure every owner operated business is profitable. If I open a hot dog stand or buy a taxi cab, nobody cares if I pay myself minimum wage or even make a profit.
    - SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
      Ah, so it takes the problem and dehumanizes it.
      - s1artibartfast 3y ago
        I think rather it highlights the hypocrisy and double think people have when they see the word employee. They have completely different expectations for two cab drivers doing the same exact job if one is an employee and one is incorporated. The employee is morally entitled to a minimum income and all sorts of benefits while the Incorporated one is responsible for taking care of themselves. This is understood and expected and the only difference is a piece of paper filed with the state
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
- Tyrek 3y ago
  Under US law, a 1099 worker(contractor) is essentially its own business. You can deduct mileage and other expenses (including insurance premiums) that would generally fall under 'business costs'.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    Under us law 1099 contractors are still employees. However, if you set up a sole proprietorship, you can engage in business to business contracts. In that scenario the counterparty is not responsible for any employee obligations.
- bananapub 3y ago
  > This would solve basically all of the legal and moral problems. er...no, having my ramen delivery bike rider have to operate a ltd company to be paid below minimum wage doesn't solve any of the moral problems.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    Why not? Do you care if the cook operating the LTD Ramen Shop is paying themselves minimum wage? No, the expectation is that operating the business is their choice and they shut it down if they don't like the profit margin
candiodari 3y ago
The government can only make this work disappear, illegal, and you know it. They cannot fix it. Fact of the matter is that even with labor conditions like this Uber and Food Delivery and other gig economy marketplaces are delivering services that are too expensive. More expensive than the threshold where average people would say "I'll just (go there/use public transport/get my food/fix it) myself". A lot of companies like Uber are effectively transferring wealth from investors to poor people ... If the government touches this, whoever does that it will be skinned alive, because governments have failed since the 80s to provide an economy where jobs are plentiful and easy enough.

by swores 3y ago

jjoonathan 3y ago

The "gotcha" isn't aimed at the people doing the study or advocating for change, it's aimed at the apologists who were running around with "everyone is winning" rhetoric. There were plenty of them around here. They were very wrong about something that should have been obvious. This is all going to play out again with AI, but moreso, so it's important to keep score.

fnimick 3y ago
They are not wrong. They are lying, and we know they are lying, and they know that we know they are lying, but they have to speak to the pretense of societal good in order to get business and money. Look at SBF's 'effective altruism' schtick to see this in action. Everyone involved knew it was bullshit, but it had to be said to keep the money flowing in.

s1artibartfast 3y ago

This whole topic seems to be unnecessary and stupid. Gig workers should all be sole Proprietors of their own businesses. The only reason they aren't is because governments make it difficult to run your own business. This would solve basically all of the legal and moral problems. Gig workers would be responsible for all of their own benefits, but be able to deduct all of their business costs. They would be responsible for if their own business turns a profit or loss and if they want to continue it.

SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
Besides business cost deductions how does this solve the problems? How would having it be a business make it different than the cost benefit they could do right now? I feel like "just make a business" doesn't actually help that much, especially not morally - I'm unsure what that means in this context, or how being a business solves it.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  It solves the problem because there is no expectation to socially ensure every owner operated business is profitable. If I open a hot dog stand or buy a taxi cab, nobody cares if I pay myself minimum wage or even make a profit.
  - SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
    Ah, so it takes the problem and dehumanizes it.
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      I think rather it highlights the hypocrisy and double think people have when they see the word employee. They have completely different expectations for two cab drivers doing the same exact job if one is an employee and one is incorporated. The employee is morally entitled to a minimum income and all sorts of benefits while the Incorporated one is responsible for taking care of themselves. This is understood and expected and the only difference is a piece of paper filed with the state
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
Tyrek 3y ago
Under US law, a 1099 worker(contractor) is essentially its own business. You can deduct mileage and other expenses (including insurance premiums) that would generally fall under 'business costs'.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Under us law 1099 contractors are still employees. However, if you set up a sole proprietorship, you can engage in business to business contracts. In that scenario the counterparty is not responsible for any employee obligations.
bananapub 3y ago
> This would solve basically all of the legal and moral problems. er...no, having my ramen delivery bike rider have to operate a ltd company to be paid below minimum wage doesn't solve any of the moral problems.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Why not? Do you care if the cook operating the LTD Ramen Shop is paying themselves minimum wage? No, the expectation is that operating the business is their choice and they shut it down if they don't like the profit margin

candiodari 3y ago

The government can only make this work disappear, illegal, and you know it. They cannot fix it. Fact of the matter is that even with labor conditions like this Uber and Food Delivery and other gig economy marketplaces are delivering services that are too expensive. More expensive than the threshold where average people would say "I'll just (go there/use public transport/get my food/fix it) myself". A lot of companies like Uber are effectively transferring wealth from investors to poor people ... If the government touches this, whoever does that it will be skinned alive, because governments have failed since the 80s to provide an economy where jobs are plentiful and easy enough.