6 ms·

>> an average of 28 hours I wonder if this hours figure is calculated the same way the gig companies calculate minimum wage. I.e. that 28 hours represents onl

>> an average of 28 hours I wonder if this hours figure is calculated the same way the gig companies calculate minimum wage. I.e. that 28 hours represents only time spent in performing the delivery task. Any waiting around beforehand when not assigned a task is not counted as working hours for the purposes of min wage calculation. If this is true (and that needs verifying) then this 28 might be a 40 hours where the person was unable to get on with their other life duties even if they weren’t technically working.

dmix 3y ago
They’d obviously do it by total hours worked vs the amount Uber/etc pays out each paycheque, not going through thousands of Uber receipts, calculating the percentages paid out + time spent doing the delivery, and totalling them up. That’d be pretty hard/impossible at scale.
- hammock 3y ago
  Not hard. Many software services built to do that sort of thing
jasmer 3y ago
Deep insight! Retailers should only pay sales clerks when they are directly talking to customers! Bus drivers should only be paid when the bus is moving! I'm only going to pay my developers when they are writing lines of code! All of the 'in between' time 'doesn't count as work'.
- c-linkage 3y ago
  Welcome to being an airline flight attendant. <https://www.news.com.au/travel/flight-attendant-reveals-pay-secret-only-paid-when-plane-doors-close/news-story/ae8178b7c5a80ccf44df08cdc7f1b9d7 https://www.news.com.au/travel/flight-attendant-reveals-pay-...>
- usr1106 3y ago
  Don't forget to ask the pay back if it turns out later that the developer introduced a bug during fhe paid period.
darkwater 3y ago
I agree on the spirit of your take but then you should count the commuting hours for the rest of workers as well. If you need 1 hour to get to work and 1 to get back, you are already working (or giving your time to your work place) 50 hours a week
- datavirtue 3y ago
  Yes, and that should be paid as well. Standard average commute times factored into pay for hourly workers.
  - kapp_in_life 3y ago
    Absurd. If you don't like the commute distance then find a different job so your (pay / (time spent commuting + time spent working) is something you agree with. Or move closer to the job.
    - Spivak 3y ago
      Or we could live in a sane world where you're paid for all the time you spend at the behest of your employer and let people live where they want. "Just quit your job" / "Just move" is the absurd thing.
      - kapp_in_life 3y ago
        "Just pay your employee to drive 3 hours" is equally absurd. Or what if I decide to take a greyhound or amtrak even longer, please pay me to sleep! You also have the choice of not taking the job, or not moving away from your job so its hardly a fair comparison.
        Spivak 3y ago
        You're thinking about this like an engineer instead of a human and not applying any sort of reasonableness test. You can take as long as you want to get to work but you'll be paid for a reasonable commute time and distance just like how mileage reimbursement and per diem works. You think in the world of business travel someone hasn't already thought about this?
lozenge 3y ago
If they did use that flawed method then the headline would be 0% of gig workers are earning below minimum wage.
Neil44 3y ago
According to the study it includes hours spent logged on waiting for jobs, which I think is a correct and meaningful way to measure it. I guess this is mostly people trying to top up their primary income. https://www.bristol.ac.uk/media-library/sites/business-school/documents/Gig%20Rights%20&%20Gig%20Wrongs%20Report.pdf https://www.bristol.ac.uk/media-library/sites/business-schoo...
- von_lohengramm 3y ago
  I'm not sure that I agree that it is. You can be logged into both Uber and Lyft awaiting rides. Good luck trying to be employed at both McDonald's and Burger King awaiting compatible schedules. What makes gig work so different is that your "employer" can't demand you to work when you don't want to. You're not going to get fired from Uber for being unable to cover a Friday night shift since you're at working at Lyft Friday night. Can't say the same about McDonald's and Burger King.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    >You're not going to get fired from Uber for being unable to cover a Friday night shift I bet Uber absolutely de-prioritizes "unreliable" workers.
    - von_lohengramm 3y ago
      It all depends on how risky you want to play the game. Do you log off from one while doing a ride for the other? Do you log on 5 minutes away from drop-off to start looking for your next ride? Do you actually accept rides while doing a ride for the other? From many anecdotes I've read, this one is apparently extremely common. I'm sure Uber has some heuristics to discourage this behavior, but ultimately, unless Uber doesn't want the driver's business entirely, then drivers who are driven will find a way to game the system as best they can. Like always, the sweet spot is somewhere in-between.
  - Neil44 3y ago
    Interestint point. If you were logged into both but only counting one set of hours wouldn't that bring your average hourly wage up?

dmix 3y ago

They’d obviously do it by total hours worked vs the amount Uber/etc pays out each paycheque, not going through thousands of Uber receipts, calculating the percentages paid out + time spent doing the delivery, and totalling them up. That’d be pretty hard/impossible at scale.

hammock 3y ago
Not hard. Many software services built to do that sort of thing

jasmer 3y ago

Deep insight! Retailers should only pay sales clerks when they are directly talking to customers! Bus drivers should only be paid when the bus is moving! I'm only going to pay my developers when they are writing lines of code! All of the 'in between' time 'doesn't count as work'.

c-linkage 3y ago
Welcome to being an airline flight attendant. <https://www.news.com.au/travel/flight-attendant-reveals-pay-secret-only-paid-when-plane-doors-close/news-story/ae8178b7c5a80ccf44df08cdc7f1b9d7 https://www.news.com.au/travel/flight-attendant-reveals-pay-...>
usr1106 3y ago
Don't forget to ask the pay back if it turns out later that the developer introduced a bug during fhe paid period.

darkwater 3y ago

I agree on the spirit of your take but then you should count the commuting hours for the rest of workers as well. If you need 1 hour to get to work and 1 to get back, you are already working (or giving your time to your work place) 50 hours a week

datavirtue 3y ago
Yes, and that should be paid as well. Standard average commute times factored into pay for hourly workers.
- kapp_in_life 3y ago
  Absurd. If you don't like the commute distance then find a different job so your (pay / (time spent commuting + time spent working) is something you agree with. Or move closer to the job.
  - Spivak 3y ago
    Or we could live in a sane world where you're paid for all the time you spend at the behest of your employer and let people live where they want. "Just quit your job" / "Just move" is the absurd thing.
    - kapp_in_life 3y ago
      "Just pay your employee to drive 3 hours" is equally absurd. Or what if I decide to take a greyhound or amtrak even longer, please pay me to sleep! You also have the choice of not taking the job, or not moving away from your job so its hardly a fair comparison.
      - Spivak 3y ago
        You're thinking about this like an engineer instead of a human and not applying any sort of reasonableness test. You can take as long as you want to get to work but you'll be paid for a reasonable commute time and distance just like how mileage reimbursement and per diem works. You think in the world of business travel someone hasn't already thought about this?

lozenge 3y ago

If they did use that flawed method then the headline would be 0% of gig workers are earning below minimum wage.

Neil44 3y ago

According to the study it includes hours spent logged on waiting for jobs, which I think is a correct and meaningful way to measure it. I guess this is mostly people trying to top up their primary income. https://www.bristol.ac.uk/media-library/sites/business-school/documents/Gig%20Rights%20&%20Gig%20Wrongs%20Report.pdf https://www.bristol.ac.uk/media-library/sites/business-schoo...

von_lohengramm 3y ago
I'm not sure that I agree that it is. You can be logged into both Uber and Lyft awaiting rides. Good luck trying to be employed at both McDonald's and Burger King awaiting compatible schedules. What makes gig work so different is that your "employer" can't demand you to work when you don't want to. You're not going to get fired from Uber for being unable to cover a Friday night shift since you're at working at Lyft Friday night. Can't say the same about McDonald's and Burger King.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  >You're not going to get fired from Uber for being unable to cover a Friday night shift I bet Uber absolutely de-prioritizes "unreliable" workers.
  - von_lohengramm 3y ago
    It all depends on how risky you want to play the game. Do you log off from one while doing a ride for the other? Do you log on 5 minutes away from drop-off to start looking for your next ride? Do you actually accept rides while doing a ride for the other? From many anecdotes I've read, this one is apparently extremely common. I'm sure Uber has some heuristics to discourage this behavior, but ultimately, unless Uber doesn't want the driver's business entirely, then drivers who are driven will find a way to game the system as best they can. Like always, the sweet spot is somewhere in-between.
- Neil44 3y ago
  Interestint point. If you were logged into both but only counting one set of hours wouldn't that bring your average hourly wage up?