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The gig economy provides a way to mop up excess labor rendered unemployable by minimum wage/benefits laws. The people doing gig economy jobs are at the margins

The gig economy provides a way to mop up excess labor rendered unemployable by minimum wage/benefits laws. The people doing gig economy jobs are at the margins, due to the circumstances they find themselves in, and those gigs are a lifeline.

balderdash 3y ago
My experience with ride sharing is that you have the people that you just mentioned, + people doing it professionally, people doing it for fun / get out of the house make a little Extra money, and people in a short term bind that need to make some extra money
- ETH_start 3y ago
  Yes true. I over-simplified. There are people who earn well from these types of gig markets. But it provides the flexibility to also allow those who really can't or won't find ordinary jobs - due to reasons ranging from their skill level, to their scheduling requirements - a way to earn.
  - pessimizer 3y ago
    Or reasons like the availability of gig labor, who you can pay less than normal employees.
jasmer 3y ago
No - the 'gig economy' provides a way to pay people substantially lower than they would have to otherwise, often lower than minimum wage, provide no benefits or long term viability, shift social spending to government, and to create an underclass of voiceless powerless serfs. The naivte here in these comments is deeply disturbing.
- mrob 3y ago
  Social spending should be the responsibility of government. Minimum wage, like price controls, is another form of stealth welfare, with the responsibility imposed on unaccountable third parties. It would make more sense for governments to redistribute wealth directly. Minimum wage is effectively a tax on low value labor, which is obviously inefficient.
  - jsbg 3y ago
    Minimum wage is a price control, and the result is the same as all price controls: it affects the demand. That is, it doesn't make employers spend more, it makes them hire less. Companies deal with rising minimum wage laws by hiring fewer more experienced people, automating, or going out of business.
    - jasmer 3y ago
      This is basically a 'partial truth' that is ultimately misleading. Min wage. changes the supply, not demand. It may or may not yield less employment depending on elasticity. A business is a balance of power between investors, execs, labour, customers and suppliers. More money to labour means less for the others at least nominally. If businesses are flush with profits, then they'll eat the higher labour input and that's it - and the 'cost' will be to investors. Otherwise, prices may rise - this may or may not cause a material reduction in sales, it depends. Or reduced payments to suppliers. Corporate entities are often very inefficient and will not get off of their buts to seek out better efficiencies unless they have to. There is a F100 retailer that I know of that is flush with profits, they pay crap wages, and their distribution is a mess, people handing of XLS files all around. They don't care. If they had a 'union' they might have to seek efficiencies there (which may imply cuts to labour somewhere, or less money to vendors). Most importantly, it's an issue of power. 'Skills and Abiblity' for example, give people power in an equation, some have very little power, which is why there are market interventions for wages (and safety by the way). You can see this more acutely in healthcare, where there are stronger regs, because the power asymmetry is bigger aka the supplier has the power of 'life or death' over the customer.
      - 3y ago
- ETH_start 3y ago
  That sounds like a conspiracy theory - which is often assumed to be wisdom as people believe it exhibits an ability to identify and see-through propaganda from the dominant powers - instead of an empirically grounded conclusion. If these people could find jobs in the regulated job market, then they would already have such jobs. The fact that they resort to gigs is itself evidence that the regulated job market cannot offer them positions.
ben_w 3y ago
The UK currently has chronic labour shortages in many areas, so I don't think your take is particularly credible in this specific case. Other cases, potentially, but not this one.
- ETH_start 3y ago
  A labor shortage can coincide with pools of unemployable workers, due to a mismatch between the skills and qualifications required for open positions and those possessed by a subset of workers.
- shagie 3y ago
  Given the ongoing UK truck driver shortages, why is uber driver a more attractive option for driving a vehicle? Then the question is "why is the uber driver not able to command as much as a truck driver?" and "why is the uber driver not switching to being a truck driver?" The corresponding part is "if you can't work 8h today but only have 2 hours in the morning and 2h in the afternoon, that flexibility comes at a cost of reduced pay." This is from a bit ago but likely still quite relevant - https://www.epi.org/publication/part-time-pay-penalty/ https://www.epi.org/publication/part-time-pay-penalty/ and https://www.hiringlab.org/2019/05/09/moms-and-part-time-work/ https://www.hiringlab.org/2019/05/09/moms-and-part-time-work...
  - ben_w 3y ago
    > Given the ongoing UK truck driver shortages, why is uber driver a more attractive option for driving a vehicle? Different licence, different working conditions. Sometimes the swings and the roundabouts are both rusty.
    - shagie 3y ago
      So this is an example of Uber employing some people who are otherwise unemployable or do not wish to be employed in that sector of the workforce. Is it reasonable to say that anyone who is currently a gig worker with Uber and wanted to could get a job as a HCV driver could do so by getting the license or taking an apprenticeship program? ( https://www.gov.uk/training-hgv/apprenticeships https://www.gov.uk/training-hgv/apprenticeships ) On the other hand, if people would rather work for Uber than a trucking company, is it fair to blame Uber for the labor shortage for truck drivers? Additionally, if people would rather work for Uber than a trucking company, is it unfair for Uber to pay less than the trucking company? (Note: I categorically against the 'disrupt the industry by ignoring regulations and miscategorize workers' that many gig based companies seek to exploit and while this does cause problems it isn't necessarily the root cause of the problems that exist from inefficiencies in current regulations and employment options) As an aside on the licensing in this situation https://www.gov.uk/guidance/use-a-driver-cpc-national-vocational-training-nvt-concession https://www.gov.uk/guidance/use-a-driver-cpc-national-vocati... : Drive an HGV or bus professionally while you're training - Apply to drive an HGV, bus or coach professionally for up to 12 months before taking all the qualifying tests if you’re doing certain training courses.
zubiaur 3y ago
An unpopular take. I think you may be onto something though. This is what I see in latam: countries with very strict labor laws end up with a huge portion of the population working informally (40% BR -70% PE).

balderdash 3y ago

My experience with ride sharing is that you have the people that you just mentioned, + people doing it professionally, people doing it for fun / get out of the house make a little Extra money, and people in a short term bind that need to make some extra money

ETH_start 3y ago
Yes true. I over-simplified. There are people who earn well from these types of gig markets. But it provides the flexibility to also allow those who really can't or won't find ordinary jobs - due to reasons ranging from their skill level, to their scheduling requirements - a way to earn.
- pessimizer 3y ago
  Or reasons like the availability of gig labor, who you can pay less than normal employees.

jasmer 3y ago

No - the 'gig economy' provides a way to pay people substantially lower than they would have to otherwise, often lower than minimum wage, provide no benefits or long term viability, shift social spending to government, and to create an underclass of voiceless powerless serfs. The naivte here in these comments is deeply disturbing.

mrob 3y ago
Social spending should be the responsibility of government. Minimum wage, like price controls, is another form of stealth welfare, with the responsibility imposed on unaccountable third parties. It would make more sense for governments to redistribute wealth directly. Minimum wage is effectively a tax on low value labor, which is obviously inefficient.
- jsbg 3y ago
  Minimum wage is a price control, and the result is the same as all price controls: it affects the demand. That is, it doesn't make employers spend more, it makes them hire less. Companies deal with rising minimum wage laws by hiring fewer more experienced people, automating, or going out of business.
  - jasmer 3y ago
    This is basically a 'partial truth' that is ultimately misleading. Min wage. changes the supply, not demand. It may or may not yield less employment depending on elasticity. A business is a balance of power between investors, execs, labour, customers and suppliers. More money to labour means less for the others at least nominally. If businesses are flush with profits, then they'll eat the higher labour input and that's it - and the 'cost' will be to investors. Otherwise, prices may rise - this may or may not cause a material reduction in sales, it depends. Or reduced payments to suppliers. Corporate entities are often very inefficient and will not get off of their buts to seek out better efficiencies unless they have to. There is a F100 retailer that I know of that is flush with profits, they pay crap wages, and their distribution is a mess, people handing of XLS files all around. They don't care. If they had a 'union' they might have to seek efficiencies there (which may imply cuts to labour somewhere, or less money to vendors). Most importantly, it's an issue of power. 'Skills and Abiblity' for example, give people power in an equation, some have very little power, which is why there are market interventions for wages (and safety by the way). You can see this more acutely in healthcare, where there are stronger regs, because the power asymmetry is bigger aka the supplier has the power of 'life or death' over the customer.
    - 3y ago
ETH_start 3y ago
That sounds like a conspiracy theory - which is often assumed to be wisdom as people believe it exhibits an ability to identify and see-through propaganda from the dominant powers - instead of an empirically grounded conclusion. If these people could find jobs in the regulated job market, then they would already have such jobs. The fact that they resort to gigs is itself evidence that the regulated job market cannot offer them positions.

ben_w 3y ago

The UK currently has chronic labour shortages in many areas, so I don't think your take is particularly credible in this specific case. Other cases, potentially, but not this one.

ETH_start 3y ago
A labor shortage can coincide with pools of unemployable workers, due to a mismatch between the skills and qualifications required for open positions and those possessed by a subset of workers.
shagie 3y ago
Given the ongoing UK truck driver shortages, why is uber driver a more attractive option for driving a vehicle? Then the question is "why is the uber driver not able to command as much as a truck driver?" and "why is the uber driver not switching to being a truck driver?" The corresponding part is "if you can't work 8h today but only have 2 hours in the morning and 2h in the afternoon, that flexibility comes at a cost of reduced pay." This is from a bit ago but likely still quite relevant - https://www.epi.org/publication/part-time-pay-penalty/ https://www.epi.org/publication/part-time-pay-penalty/ and https://www.hiringlab.org/2019/05/09/moms-and-part-time-work/ https://www.hiringlab.org/2019/05/09/moms-and-part-time-work...
- ben_w 3y ago
  > Given the ongoing UK truck driver shortages, why is uber driver a more attractive option for driving a vehicle? Different licence, different working conditions. Sometimes the swings and the roundabouts are both rusty.
  - shagie 3y ago
    So this is an example of Uber employing some people who are otherwise unemployable or do not wish to be employed in that sector of the workforce. Is it reasonable to say that anyone who is currently a gig worker with Uber and wanted to could get a job as a HCV driver could do so by getting the license or taking an apprenticeship program? ( https://www.gov.uk/training-hgv/apprenticeships https://www.gov.uk/training-hgv/apprenticeships ) On the other hand, if people would rather work for Uber than a trucking company, is it fair to blame Uber for the labor shortage for truck drivers? Additionally, if people would rather work for Uber than a trucking company, is it unfair for Uber to pay less than the trucking company? (Note: I categorically against the 'disrupt the industry by ignoring regulations and miscategorize workers' that many gig based companies seek to exploit and while this does cause problems it isn't necessarily the root cause of the problems that exist from inefficiencies in current regulations and employment options) As an aside on the licensing in this situation https://www.gov.uk/guidance/use-a-driver-cpc-national-vocational-training-nvt-concession https://www.gov.uk/guidance/use-a-driver-cpc-national-vocati... : Drive an HGV or bus professionally while you're training - Apply to drive an HGV, bus or coach professionally for up to 12 months before taking all the qualifying tests if you’re doing certain training courses.

zubiaur 3y ago

An unpopular take. I think you may be onto something though. This is what I see in latam: countries with very strict labor laws end up with a huge portion of the population working informally (40% BR -70% PE).