5 ms·

Man oh man. Microsoft really just has no interest in keeping motivated and talented people around. The brain drain is going to ramp up even more from here If

Man oh man. Microsoft really just has no interest in keeping motivated and talented people around. The brain drain is going to ramp up even more from here If you're still at MSFT: do yourself a favor and jump ship. It's a good job, but there are even better jobs out there. Just tell the recruiter when you get your new job offer that you've been drinking $5,000 a year's worth of free soda, and you'll need them to match that with a cash bump.

ericmcer 3y ago
The tech job market is brutal right now, employers aren’t going to flex on their employees unless they can, and they totally can right now.
- Firmwarrior 3y ago
  It's not as bad as you'd think, especially for someone with a big name like Microsoft on their resume Satya and his pals in the C-suite are relying on naïveté, since they know most of their employees are busy working diligently instead of weaseling up job offers all the time
  - pacaro 3y ago
    It doesn't matter either way, people have long enough memories, there will be an exodus when the job market picks up too. MS did the same thing twice while I was there (99–13) It's a good thing. It helps remind people that the company is not a person, it doesn't repay loyalty with loyalty. Your income is the bottom line of how you are valued, they've chosen to send a message to remind you of this
    - screwturner68 3y ago
      In my 20 years (not MS) we've had 2-3 temporary pay cuts during downturns to avoid layoffs -a 5% pay cut sucks but the job you save may be your own. In 20 years I've seen somewhere around 200,000 of my co-workers RIF'ed, 10,000 on the day I was hired. The company has always made it's numbers, the CXOs have always been paid more than my life's total income and yet they always ask us to do more for less. I'd like to finish out my career here but it does appear that the grass is greener and despite what I think and how I feel the company won't care and will be fine without me. Everyone should remember that.
- Hermitian909 3y ago
  It's certainly rough for juniors but, anecdotally, a solid MSFT senior or above should not have any trouble in the current market. Demand for good talent is high at many companies paying more (liquid) than MSFT e.g. Block.
scarface74 3y ago
Yes and go where? Google, Facebook and Amazon are laying off people and it would be crazy to work for one of the many non profitable private or public tech compabies.
- greenthrow 3y ago
  There's literally thousands of other employers out there desperate for good tech people.
  - scarface74 3y ago
    And do these “thousand of employees” pay what Microsoft is paying?
    - synaesthesisx 3y ago
      Yes, there are tons of companies out there that pay much better than Microsoft (that most people have likely never heard of).
    - taurath 3y ago
      Its not hard to beat microsoft packages, they've been under market rate for a while
      - scarface74 3y ago
        So name 10 companies that are paying what Microsoft is paying that are profitable and haven’t announced layoffs? And that doesn’t include meaningless “equity” in a private company.
        therealdrag0 3y ago
        I don’t wanna dox myself but I work for a public company who’s stock didn’t crash and who hasn’t laid anyone off and we pay similar to MS (or more if you ignore all the random perks MS gives)
srj 3y ago
There have been so many layoffs that there is a glut of software engineers looking for jobs. The company's leadership knows that now, with labor supply up, they don't need to pay people the compensation they're currently paying. This is a way of reducing pay in real terms while not taking the more dramatic step of cutting wages. If things turn around again hopefully people remember this. This wasn't a shared hardship between leadership and the line engineers.
- jwestbury 3y ago
  > The company's leadership knows that now, with labor supply up, they don't need to pay people the compensation they're currently paying. This isn't accurate and hasn't been for some time. Microsoft's engineers are lower-quality than their peers, because Microsoft has been offering lower compensation than their peers -- by a substantial amount -- for over a decade now. Maybe lower-level engineers don't really matter. I don't know. But unless you're at the partner level, you're getting paid a lot less at Microsoft than you would be elsewhere, and in light in recent events, you're not even benefiting from the stability you'd get elsewhere. I suspect this will have long-term impacts on Microsoft as they continue to lose talented engineers at the lower levels, but no longer have talented old-timers around at the higher levels. Once people at the 67+ level start retiring en masse, I'm not sure Microsoft actually has the talent to replace them.
  - cdeutsch 3y ago
    > you're getting paid a lot less at Microsoft than you would be elsewhere The one year (2016) I worked at Microsoft after an acquisition was more than any startup has paid me, even if you factor in "(stock options exit / years worked at start) + startup salary" I was blown away and felt stupid for all the years I've been chasing startup lottery tickets. Any of the big tech companies, including Microsoft, pay WAY more than your average programming gig. OH and they don't have career ceilings for individual contributors. I'd happily work there again someday, and really wish someone would have told me how high the pay is at these big tech companies 20 years ago. Would have skipped the startup route.
onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
MSFT has an absurd amount of people that have been there for like 15+ years. Most of them have houses with payments that are next to nothing and can do their jobs in their sleep. They're not going anywhere.
- ghaff 3y ago
  Any large company has people in a lot of different economic, lifestyle, and points in their career. But perhaps especially at Microsoft, you have a lot of people who have been there for ages, may well have paid-off houses, have probably made loads of money on Microsoft stock and are pretty comfortable where they are. Of course, they'd rather get a few percent added to their salary. But many people in this category will <shrug> and stay put unless they're actively unhappy. That's a pretty sensible strategy in a lot of circumstances.
Narkov 3y ago
Might need some self-reflection on this comment. You are suggesting you have a better insight than a company that just generated $18b in profit. They know what they are doing (TM).
throwawaysleep 3y ago
If you are a motivated and hardworking employee in this day and age, you are being scammed.
ryanSrich 3y ago
This is pretty terrible advice when the job market, even for extremely well qualified and experienced engineers, is less than ideal. If you’re a highly paid engineer I’d suggest holding on to that job for at least another 24 months.
- htag 3y ago
  > less than ideal Yea, things aren't perfect and risk free so you might as well not even look at your options for change. /s
  - ryanSrich 3y ago
    From what I’m seeing, it’s almost guaranteed you take a pay cut, and at minimum you’re going to be looking for 3-6 months, more likely 12. Unless you’re a truly genius 160 IQ engineer. Most are not. Most will be much better off staying put at their cushy big tech job despite not getting a raise. We’re on the cusp of entering what is to be the worst financial recession since the 1920s.
dclowd9901 3y ago
I was at amazon and left because the work there sucks. They’re not interested in making and shipping things; it’s just become a giant cesspool of middle managers creating process and justifying their existence. Big companies suck. Take your brains to a smaller outfit and disrupt.
andsoitis 3y ago
> The brain drain is going to ramp up even more from here Where to, pray tell?

ericmcer 3y ago

The tech job market is brutal right now, employers aren’t going to flex on their employees unless they can, and they totally can right now.

Firmwarrior 3y ago
It's not as bad as you'd think, especially for someone with a big name like Microsoft on their resume Satya and his pals in the C-suite are relying on naïveté, since they know most of their employees are busy working diligently instead of weaseling up job offers all the time
- pacaro 3y ago
  It doesn't matter either way, people have long enough memories, there will be an exodus when the job market picks up too. MS did the same thing twice while I was there (99–13) It's a good thing. It helps remind people that the company is not a person, it doesn't repay loyalty with loyalty. Your income is the bottom line of how you are valued, they've chosen to send a message to remind you of this
  - screwturner68 3y ago
    In my 20 years (not MS) we've had 2-3 temporary pay cuts during downturns to avoid layoffs -a 5% pay cut sucks but the job you save may be your own. In 20 years I've seen somewhere around 200,000 of my co-workers RIF'ed, 10,000 on the day I was hired. The company has always made it's numbers, the CXOs have always been paid more than my life's total income and yet they always ask us to do more for less. I'd like to finish out my career here but it does appear that the grass is greener and despite what I think and how I feel the company won't care and will be fine without me. Everyone should remember that.
Hermitian909 3y ago
It's certainly rough for juniors but, anecdotally, a solid MSFT senior or above should not have any trouble in the current market. Demand for good talent is high at many companies paying more (liquid) than MSFT e.g. Block.

scarface74 3y ago

Yes and go where? Google, Facebook and Amazon are laying off people and it would be crazy to work for one of the many non profitable private or public tech compabies.

greenthrow 3y ago
There's literally thousands of other employers out there desperate for good tech people.
- scarface74 3y ago
  And do these “thousand of employees” pay what Microsoft is paying?
  - synaesthesisx 3y ago
    Yes, there are tons of companies out there that pay much better than Microsoft (that most people have likely never heard of).
  - taurath 3y ago
    Its not hard to beat microsoft packages, they've been under market rate for a while
    - scarface74 3y ago
      So name 10 companies that are paying what Microsoft is paying that are profitable and haven’t announced layoffs? And that doesn’t include meaningless “equity” in a private company.
      - therealdrag0 3y ago
        I don’t wanna dox myself but I work for a public company who’s stock didn’t crash and who hasn’t laid anyone off and we pay similar to MS (or more if you ignore all the random perks MS gives)

srj 3y ago

There have been so many layoffs that there is a glut of software engineers looking for jobs. The company's leadership knows that now, with labor supply up, they don't need to pay people the compensation they're currently paying. This is a way of reducing pay in real terms while not taking the more dramatic step of cutting wages. If things turn around again hopefully people remember this. This wasn't a shared hardship between leadership and the line engineers.

jwestbury 3y ago
> The company's leadership knows that now, with labor supply up, they don't need to pay people the compensation they're currently paying. This isn't accurate and hasn't been for some time. Microsoft's engineers are lower-quality than their peers, because Microsoft has been offering lower compensation than their peers -- by a substantial amount -- for over a decade now. Maybe lower-level engineers don't really matter. I don't know. But unless you're at the partner level, you're getting paid a lot less at Microsoft than you would be elsewhere, and in light in recent events, you're not even benefiting from the stability you'd get elsewhere. I suspect this will have long-term impacts on Microsoft as they continue to lose talented engineers at the lower levels, but no longer have talented old-timers around at the higher levels. Once people at the 67+ level start retiring en masse, I'm not sure Microsoft actually has the talent to replace them.
- cdeutsch 3y ago
  > you're getting paid a lot less at Microsoft than you would be elsewhere The one year (2016) I worked at Microsoft after an acquisition was more than any startup has paid me, even if you factor in "(stock options exit / years worked at start) + startup salary" I was blown away and felt stupid for all the years I've been chasing startup lottery tickets. Any of the big tech companies, including Microsoft, pay WAY more than your average programming gig. OH and they don't have career ceilings for individual contributors. I'd happily work there again someday, and really wish someone would have told me how high the pay is at these big tech companies 20 years ago. Would have skipped the startup route.

onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago

MSFT has an absurd amount of people that have been there for like 15+ years. Most of them have houses with payments that are next to nothing and can do their jobs in their sleep. They're not going anywhere.

ghaff 3y ago
Any large company has people in a lot of different economic, lifestyle, and points in their career. But perhaps especially at Microsoft, you have a lot of people who have been there for ages, may well have paid-off houses, have probably made loads of money on Microsoft stock and are pretty comfortable where they are. Of course, they'd rather get a few percent added to their salary. But many people in this category will <shrug> and stay put unless they're actively unhappy. That's a pretty sensible strategy in a lot of circumstances.

Narkov 3y ago

Might need some self-reflection on this comment. You are suggesting you have a better insight than a company that just generated $18b in profit. They know what they are doing (TM).

throwawaysleep 3y ago

If you are a motivated and hardworking employee in this day and age, you are being scammed.

ryanSrich 3y ago

This is pretty terrible advice when the job market, even for extremely well qualified and experienced engineers, is less than ideal. If you’re a highly paid engineer I’d suggest holding on to that job for at least another 24 months.

htag 3y ago
> less than ideal Yea, things aren't perfect and risk free so you might as well not even look at your options for change. /s
- ryanSrich 3y ago
  From what I’m seeing, it’s almost guaranteed you take a pay cut, and at minimum you’re going to be looking for 3-6 months, more likely 12. Unless you’re a truly genius 160 IQ engineer. Most are not. Most will be much better off staying put at their cushy big tech job despite not getting a raise. We’re on the cusp of entering what is to be the worst financial recession since the 1920s.

dclowd9901 3y ago

I was at amazon and left because the work there sucks. They’re not interested in making and shipping things; it’s just become a giant cesspool of middle managers creating process and justifying their existence. Big companies suck. Take your brains to a smaller outfit and disrupt.

andsoitis 3y ago

> The brain drain is going to ramp up even more from here Where to, pray tell?