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> I was too young to remember these events firsthand, but learning about Grozny in the history books, I am mystified that the world was so eager to cooperate wi

by ilyt 4y ago

> I was too young to remember these events firsthand, but learning about Grozny in the history books, I am mystified that the world was so eager to cooperate with Russia such a short time later. Putin completely destroyed a cosmopolitan city killing thousands of civilians. The Russian military offered the defenders safe passage out of the city and mined the road overnight before they left. I think it was vain hope that the cooperation and "playing nice" will cause shift in russia into more civilized country and shift the iron curtain thinking of EU being "the enemy" instead of "partner in making more wealth for the citizens".

dathinab 4y ago
> it was vain hope that the cooperation and "playing nice" yes especially given that the US torpedoed any chance of really nicely getting along with Russia when we go far enough back to a point where Russia could have gone in a different direction but there where many many clear indications that any such chance had passed since many years ago to a point where it was clear that going forward with the "playing nice" path would not work Through I guess part of the reason they tried anyway is because while the US is for the EU the most close aligned super power, there are still many differences. At the same time a major US <-> China conflict is on the horizon since decades and the EU is not and likely never will be in a position to go to war with China. Also in some few point the EU is closer to China then the US in their views. To cut it short AFIK an escalation of an US China conflict has a non small risk of the EU being torn up between the fronts (more economically then military), but a EU with strong ties to Russia would be string enough to not fully enter the conflict and in turn might come out more powerful then both the US or China
arp242 3y ago
It's only in hindsight that you can say the hope was "vain"; many Eastern European countries are doing fairly well, as are most Balkan (former Yugoslavia) countries. Further back you can also look at post-Franco Spain as a success, or Germany after the second world war. At some point you got to say "okay, we'll try again with you guys". Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. There's a fine line to walk here, but in the end it's the only option there is other than perpetual hostilities.
- hnfong 3y ago
  There's also perpetual colonialization and extermination of people you don't like. Neither options are good, just bringing them up since they have been done in the past.

by ilyt 4y ago

dathinab 4y ago

> it was vain hope that the cooperation and "playing nice" yes especially given that the US torpedoed any chance of really nicely getting along with Russia when we go far enough back to a point where Russia could have gone in a different direction but there where many many clear indications that any such chance had passed since many years ago to a point where it was clear that going forward with the "playing nice" path would not work Through I guess part of the reason they tried anyway is because while the US is for the EU the most close aligned super power, there are still many differences. At the same time a major US <-> China conflict is on the horizon since decades and the EU is not and likely never will be in a position to go to war with China. Also in some few point the EU is closer to China then the US in their views. To cut it short AFIK an escalation of an US China conflict has a non small risk of the EU being torn up between the fronts (more economically then military), but a EU with strong ties to Russia would be string enough to not fully enter the conflict and in turn might come out more powerful then both the US or China

arp242 3y ago

It's only in hindsight that you can say the hope was "vain"; many Eastern European countries are doing fairly well, as are most Balkan (former Yugoslavia) countries. Further back you can also look at post-Franco Spain as a success, or Germany after the second world war. At some point you got to say "okay, we'll try again with you guys". Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. There's a fine line to walk here, but in the end it's the only option there is other than perpetual hostilities.

hnfong 3y ago
There's also perpetual colonialization and extermination of people you don't like. Neither options are good, just bringing them up since they have been done in the past.