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I'm not sure if you genuinely think the extent of the destruction in Grozny is comparable to the extent of the destruction in Yugoslavia after the NATO interven

I'm not sure if you genuinely think the extent of the destruction in Grozny is comparable to the extent of the destruction in Yugoslavia after the NATO intervention, but it wasn't, and neither was the need to rebuild. NATO did not grind any Yugoslav cities to dust, and killed hundreds, not thousands, of civilians. Furthermore, NATO did not invade and conquer Yugoslavia, which seems like a key point in regards to rebuilding. The Chechens did not get the opportunity to rebuild Grozny themselves because Russia destroyed their government, tricked their leadership into being slain while withdrawing, and re-created their state as Russian. The Chechens wanted to be left to their own devices to run their country. Russia invaded in response, and killed and destroyed until there was nothing left to defend. Can you recognize the absolute distortion of perspective it takes to look at Russia invading Chechenya to prevent its independence, destroying its capital to force it to surrender, and then say "well at least Russia rebuilt it after they conquered it!" >NATO countries are encouraged to reflect on their own shit and stop nagging us Your country invaded a NATO-friendly nation on the border of NATO. You are not being "nagged" when that country's government calls the world for aid and the world, shocked and appalled at the actions of your bloodthirsty regime, responds. Look, I won't even attempt to convince you any further - either your government will collapse and the harsh rays of sunlight will expose the truth for you, or your government will continue to close its doors to the outside world until what you believe won't matter at all anyway. I don't imagine I have the rhetorical ability to break through your distorted worldview myself. You lost this war in 2021. At this point, it's just a question of how many Ukrainian and Russian lives you will waste before accepting it.

thriftwy 3y ago
[flagged]
- czzr 3y ago
  In the end, your arguments in this thread always come back to “well, they did it too” or “they deserved it”. I hope one day Russia and Russians find a way to contribute hope to the world, instead of sad and pointless destruction.
  - thriftwy 3y ago
    I can see that you expect Russians to be better people than Germans or Americans, while having worse prior history and being overally more poor and miserable. That would be a noble expectation, but you could predict that it will not be uphold. Maybe because it is not possible in practice, or at least highly implausible. Russans, in general, are people. People go to war when told to do so by their superiors. People rationalize what happens in the moment, to reflect on it and be outraged later. If you were doing that in a good faith, good for you, but as you can see that's not how the world works.
    - dathinab 3y ago
      > People go to war when told to do so by their superiors. Actually many do not.
      - phlipski 3y ago
        And allegedly upwards of 700,000 Russians have decided to NOT got to war and have fled the country! This source is 7 months old. You've got to figure that even more have fled since! https://www.reuters.com/world/e7urope/where-have-russians-been-fleeing-since-mobilisation-began-2022-10-06/7 https://www.reuters.com/world/e7urope/where-have-russians-be...
    - jen20 3y ago
      > People go to war when told to do so by their superiors. They absolutely do not if they want to be considered of good moral character.
      - thriftwy 3y ago
        Who said they do? They want to be respected members of their community and want to keep their country intact, leaving the moral character stuff to Immanuel Kant.
    - chrysler 3y ago
      >> I can see that you expect Russians to be better people than Germans or Americans More Germans opposed Nazism than Russians oppose Putinism. "It has been estimated that during the course of World War II 800,000 Germans were arrested by the Gestapo for resistance activities. It has also been estimated that between 15,000 and 77,000 of the Germans were executed by the Nazis." Nothing comparable exists in Russia. You like Putin more than Germans liked Hitler.
- yks 3y ago
  Your comment is a masterful exhibit of an imperial thought, deciding for the conquered people that their independence is "untenable", because after all those people are just "criminals". Might have as well thrown in some other classic Russian quotes about Chechens having "no morals, nothing to distinguish them from wild beasts" (that one is from 1824). Of course you're blind to how Russian imperialism creates and perpetrates this condition, blinded by imperial greed to acquire and hold onto the lands, while being always brutal, after all they are all "beasts" and "criminals", Chechens, Ukrainians, Kazakhs, whoever else the eye of a conqueror falls onto. Happy that the other countries dropping bombs somewhere else give you a carte blanche to bomb hospitals and apartment buildings methodically and with glee. Being proud of bringing more suffering into this already troubled world.
  - thriftwy 3y ago
    Imagine you are Putin in 1999 and you have to solve the problem of Ichkeria right there right now. You can't go back to 1824. Or 1944. Or 1992. What do you do? I've described the context. If you do nothing, Ichkerians will hostage or rob more people and your popular support will dwindle because of your inaction and somebody more eager takes your place. I am patiently explaining it to you for some reason, whereas in context of Iraq, Lybia and Syria this is completely moot.
- kspacewalk2 3y ago
  Oh goody, Mariupol is being rebuilt! Mostly as a vehicle for good old fashioned construction related corruption, and at a pace that'll take 50+ years, but hey, nice of you to throw that in there! Is the replacement of thousands of civilians butchered by Russia's "liberators" also under way?

thriftwy 3y ago

[flagged]

czzr 3y ago
In the end, your arguments in this thread always come back to “well, they did it too” or “they deserved it”. I hope one day Russia and Russians find a way to contribute hope to the world, instead of sad and pointless destruction.
- thriftwy 3y ago
  I can see that you expect Russians to be better people than Germans or Americans, while having worse prior history and being overally more poor and miserable. That would be a noble expectation, but you could predict that it will not be uphold. Maybe because it is not possible in practice, or at least highly implausible. Russans, in general, are people. People go to war when told to do so by their superiors. People rationalize what happens in the moment, to reflect on it and be outraged later. If you were doing that in a good faith, good for you, but as you can see that's not how the world works.
  - dathinab 3y ago
    > People go to war when told to do so by their superiors. Actually many do not.
    - phlipski 3y ago
      And allegedly upwards of 700,000 Russians have decided to NOT got to war and have fled the country! This source is 7 months old. You've got to figure that even more have fled since! https://www.reuters.com/world/e7urope/where-have-russians-been-fleeing-since-mobilisation-began-2022-10-06/7 https://www.reuters.com/world/e7urope/where-have-russians-be...
  - jen20 3y ago
    > People go to war when told to do so by their superiors. They absolutely do not if they want to be considered of good moral character.
    - thriftwy 3y ago
      Who said they do? They want to be respected members of their community and want to keep their country intact, leaving the moral character stuff to Immanuel Kant.
  - chrysler 3y ago
    >> I can see that you expect Russians to be better people than Germans or Americans More Germans opposed Nazism than Russians oppose Putinism. "It has been estimated that during the course of World War II 800,000 Germans were arrested by the Gestapo for resistance activities. It has also been estimated that between 15,000 and 77,000 of the Germans were executed by the Nazis." Nothing comparable exists in Russia. You like Putin more than Germans liked Hitler.
yks 3y ago
Your comment is a masterful exhibit of an imperial thought, deciding for the conquered people that their independence is "untenable", because after all those people are just "criminals". Might have as well thrown in some other classic Russian quotes about Chechens having "no morals, nothing to distinguish them from wild beasts" (that one is from 1824). Of course you're blind to how Russian imperialism creates and perpetrates this condition, blinded by imperial greed to acquire and hold onto the lands, while being always brutal, after all they are all "beasts" and "criminals", Chechens, Ukrainians, Kazakhs, whoever else the eye of a conqueror falls onto. Happy that the other countries dropping bombs somewhere else give you a carte blanche to bomb hospitals and apartment buildings methodically and with glee. Being proud of bringing more suffering into this already troubled world.
- thriftwy 3y ago
  Imagine you are Putin in 1999 and you have to solve the problem of Ichkeria right there right now. You can't go back to 1824. Or 1944. Or 1992. What do you do? I've described the context. If you do nothing, Ichkerians will hostage or rob more people and your popular support will dwindle because of your inaction and somebody more eager takes your place. I am patiently explaining it to you for some reason, whereas in context of Iraq, Lybia and Syria this is completely moot.
kspacewalk2 3y ago
Oh goody, Mariupol is being rebuilt! Mostly as a vehicle for good old fashioned construction related corruption, and at a pace that'll take 50+ years, but hey, nice of you to throw that in there! Is the replacement of thousands of civilians butchered by Russia's "liberators" also under way?