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> The NATO intervention in Yugoslavia is not remotely like an atrocity like the destruction of Grozny. Why is that? At least, Russia has rebuilt Grozny since

> The NATO intervention in Yugoslavia is not remotely like an atrocity like the destruction of Grozny. Why is that? At least, Russia has rebuilt Grozny since then, whereas NATO just left Serbs to their own devices. Neither do Russians care that much what people of the EU feel. We have our own mental resources to reflect on the shit we made, so the NATO countries are encouraged to reflect on their own shit and stop nagging us. And take your NGOs with you. Meanwhile we still have a war to win, or at least to end.

bluepizza 3y ago
I sincerely hope that you find a way out of a violent and destructive mindset. The only one to blame for Russia's isolation and woes are Russians themselves. The day that Russia stops sabotaging elections, bribing officials, and murdering innocents is the day that Russia will be accepted openly.
- abvaw 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - throwway120385 3y ago
    Whataboutism is always the recourse for someone who doesn't see a moral imperative to stop doing bad things. "Everyone does it. What's wrong if we do it too?" Well the point isn't to sink to the lowest low humanity has to offer but to try to be better than everyone else, and you can't claim the moral high ground by arguing from the bottom of the hill.
mustacheemperor 3y ago
I'm not sure if you genuinely think the extent of the destruction in Grozny is comparable to the extent of the destruction in Yugoslavia after the NATO intervention, but it wasn't, and neither was the need to rebuild. NATO did not grind any Yugoslav cities to dust, and killed hundreds, not thousands, of civilians. Furthermore, NATO did not invade and conquer Yugoslavia, which seems like a key point in regards to rebuilding. The Chechens did not get the opportunity to rebuild Grozny themselves because Russia destroyed their government, tricked their leadership into being slain while withdrawing, and re-created their state as Russian. The Chechens wanted to be left to their own devices to run their country. Russia invaded in response, and killed and destroyed until there was nothing left to defend. Can you recognize the absolute distortion of perspective it takes to look at Russia invading Chechenya to prevent its independence, destroying its capital to force it to surrender, and then say "well at least Russia rebuilt it after they conquered it!" >NATO countries are encouraged to reflect on their own shit and stop nagging us Your country invaded a NATO-friendly nation on the border of NATO. You are not being "nagged" when that country's government calls the world for aid and the world, shocked and appalled at the actions of your bloodthirsty regime, responds. Look, I won't even attempt to convince you any further - either your government will collapse and the harsh rays of sunlight will expose the truth for you, or your government will continue to close its doors to the outside world until what you believe won't matter at all anyway. I don't imagine I have the rhetorical ability to break through your distorted worldview myself. You lost this war in 2021. At this point, it's just a question of how many Ukrainian and Russian lives you will waste before accepting it.
- thriftwy 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - czzr 3y ago
    In the end, your arguments in this thread always come back to “well, they did it too” or “they deserved it”. I hope one day Russia and Russians find a way to contribute hope to the world, instead of sad and pointless destruction.
    - thriftwy 3y ago
      I can see that you expect Russians to be better people than Germans or Americans, while having worse prior history and being overally more poor and miserable. That would be a noble expectation, but you could predict that it will not be uphold. Maybe because it is not possible in practice, or at least highly implausible. Russans, in general, are people. People go to war when told to do so by their superiors. People rationalize what happens in the moment, to reflect on it and be outraged later. If you were doing that in a good faith, good for you, but as you can see that's not how the world works.
      - dathinab 3y ago
        > People go to war when told to do so by their superiors. Actually many do not.
        phlipski 3y ago
        And allegedly upwards of 700,000 Russians have decided to NOT got to war and have fled the country! This source is 7 months old. You've got to figure that even more have fled since! https://www.reuters.com/world/e7urope/where-have-russians-been-fleeing-since-mobilisation-began-2022-10-06/7 https://www.reuters.com/world/e7urope/where-have-russians-be...
      - jen20 3y ago
        > People go to war when told to do so by their superiors. They absolutely do not if they want to be considered of good moral character.

bluepizza 3y ago

I sincerely hope that you find a way out of a violent and destructive mindset. The only one to blame for Russia's isolation and woes are Russians themselves. The day that Russia stops sabotaging elections, bribing officials, and murdering innocents is the day that Russia will be accepted openly.

abvaw 3y ago
[flagged]
- throwway120385 3y ago
  Whataboutism is always the recourse for someone who doesn't see a moral imperative to stop doing bad things. "Everyone does it. What's wrong if we do it too?" Well the point isn't to sink to the lowest low humanity has to offer but to try to be better than everyone else, and you can't claim the moral high ground by arguing from the bottom of the hill.

mustacheemperor 3y ago

I'm not sure if you genuinely think the extent of the destruction in Grozny is comparable to the extent of the destruction in Yugoslavia after the NATO intervention, but it wasn't, and neither was the need to rebuild. NATO did not grind any Yugoslav cities to dust, and killed hundreds, not thousands, of civilians. Furthermore, NATO did not invade and conquer Yugoslavia, which seems like a key point in regards to rebuilding. The Chechens did not get the opportunity to rebuild Grozny themselves because Russia destroyed their government, tricked their leadership into being slain while withdrawing, and re-created their state as Russian. The Chechens wanted to be left to their own devices to run their country. Russia invaded in response, and killed and destroyed until there was nothing left to defend. Can you recognize the absolute distortion of perspective it takes to look at Russia invading Chechenya to prevent its independence, destroying its capital to force it to surrender, and then say "well at least Russia rebuilt it after they conquered it!" >NATO countries are encouraged to reflect on their own shit and stop nagging us Your country invaded a NATO-friendly nation on the border of NATO. You are not being "nagged" when that country's government calls the world for aid and the world, shocked and appalled at the actions of your bloodthirsty regime, responds. Look, I won't even attempt to convince you any further - either your government will collapse and the harsh rays of sunlight will expose the truth for you, or your government will continue to close its doors to the outside world until what you believe won't matter at all anyway. I don't imagine I have the rhetorical ability to break through your distorted worldview myself. You lost this war in 2021. At this point, it's just a question of how many Ukrainian and Russian lives you will waste before accepting it.

thriftwy 3y ago
[flagged]
- czzr 3y ago
  In the end, your arguments in this thread always come back to “well, they did it too” or “they deserved it”. I hope one day Russia and Russians find a way to contribute hope to the world, instead of sad and pointless destruction.
  - thriftwy 3y ago
    I can see that you expect Russians to be better people than Germans or Americans, while having worse prior history and being overally more poor and miserable. That would be a noble expectation, but you could predict that it will not be uphold. Maybe because it is not possible in practice, or at least highly implausible. Russans, in general, are people. People go to war when told to do so by their superiors. People rationalize what happens in the moment, to reflect on it and be outraged later. If you were doing that in a good faith, good for you, but as you can see that's not how the world works.
    - dathinab 3y ago
      > People go to war when told to do so by their superiors. Actually many do not.
      - phlipski 3y ago
        And allegedly upwards of 700,000 Russians have decided to NOT got to war and have fled the country! This source is 7 months old. You've got to figure that even more have fled since! https://www.reuters.com/world/e7urope/where-have-russians-been-fleeing-since-mobilisation-began-2022-10-06/7 https://www.reuters.com/world/e7urope/where-have-russians-be...
    - jen20 3y ago
      > People go to war when told to do so by their superiors. They absolutely do not if they want to be considered of good moral character.