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My experience working with folks who claim ADD and treat it with Adderall is more akin to working with someone who has a drug problem. Sleeplessness, suddenly m

My experience working with folks who claim ADD and treat it with Adderall is more akin to working with someone who has a drug problem. Sleeplessness, suddenly missing work, constantly forgetting to eat day after day, breakdowns, MIA in meetings, really poor code, and more. This has happened > 3 times in the past handful of years. My totally uninformed take is that these individuals emphatically do not suffer from ADD, but are victims of the "ADD software engineer industrial complex" that basically preys on folks who need a lot of focus to do their job. They get on powerful amphetamines, like it, go deeper, and then suddenly there's a _real_ health problem. It is a fact that these drugs are over-prescribed; it's basically a crisis. And there isn't nearly enough awareness of the dangers or the long-term impact on mental health. *Writing this as someone who has been down the addiction rabbit hole in the past, and knows the ropes.

hirvi74 3y ago
My issue with the matter is that I have ADHD, and I didn't seek treatment because of wanting to perform better a my job. It's literally the difference between me keeping my job or not, not crashing my car into another person's vehicle, etc.. I still vastly under-perform compared to my peers despite being medicated. Any person that was taking stimulant medications without ADHD would absolutely blow me out of the water -- it's the main issue I have in regards to stimulants. It's be like a professional athlete taking steroids or other PEDs when competing against a high school aged sports team. When other people use stimulant medication for non-medical purposes then it causes me to be measured against an echelon of performance that is basically unobtainable i.e. the best I can function at is no longer "good enough." I mean, sure, there are probably a few other factors that also contribute to my issues other than just medication (lack of organization skills, past traumas, etc.), but it has been something I noticed even back when I was in college a decade ago. I knew plenty of people that faked symptoms to get a prescription. Meanwhile, I had to go through all kinds of testing, interviews, etc. to get legitimately diagnosed. However, I do not fault the individuals who take any substance medicinally or otherwise. We are all trying to make in this world, and I think a lot of our culture has created a demand that leaves many with no other options -- sink or swim.
- sibeliuss 3y ago
  Just to be clear, ADHD is certainly a real thing, and I have a lot of compassion for those who suffer it. My anecdotal story is all about being able to clearly identify when someone is suffering from addiction or drug abuse, having been there myself. Such outcomes are a natural side-effect of a culture that overprescribes addictive (and often very enjoyable) chemical stimulants.
  - hirvi74 3y ago
    I'm sure you are well aware of the connection between ADHD and addiction to begin with. I am prescribed stimulants for ADHD. Just because you need something doesn't mean it can't be addictive (I know you didn't say otherwise). With that being said, I am without a doubt dependent on the medication (that's kind of the point), but am I addicted? Well, I ask myself that everyday. I would argue to some degree, I probably am too.
    - lazide 3y ago
      Chances are, if you’re worried about it that way, you aren’t.
      - sibeliuss 3y ago
        As someone who has been through the addiction loop, I can say a) it's a good thing that he's thinking that way, it is good to be conscious of these things; b) that even the slightest question about addiction points to something significant, something to watch very closely; and c) consciousness about these things can never be used as an excuse to ignore it.
        lazide 3y ago
        Good points. However, it’s also an extremely common reason people with ADHD use to go off their meds, when looking in from the outside they clearly weren’t addicted by literally any definition of the word. It would be like if someone who suffered from chronic dehydration worried they were addicted to water because they were drinking the amount prescribed for them after having a medical diagnosis related to it, so they stopped. Then, of course, went back to the prior state which was ‘normal’ to them. Which is why it’s all best done under the supervision of a qualified professional who hopefully isn’t a fuckup.
junofan 3y ago
It is an ADA-recognized disability. You’d expect some trouble at work without reasonable accommodations. The treatment isn’t 100%, as you’ve identified.
zamnos 3y ago
The problem with this anecdote is that you don't know who is taking Adderall and isn't talking to you about it. That is, they're taking it regularly and successfully, and it's working for them. They're leading productive lives, but wouldn't be off their medication. There are people with terrible self-care habits (sleeping; eating), and sprinkling powerful stimulants on top of those bad habits is a recipe for disaster. The way I read this comment (in contrast to your followup to hirvi74), it sounds like, extrapolating from the 3+ people you know, that everyone who has ADD (an antiquated term) takes Adderall, are drug addicts, bad employees, and poor coders to boot. There's a reason why some people with ADHD don't talk about it at work and judgements based off an uncareful reading of anecdoes like yours are why.
tiedieconderoga 3y ago
Adderall treats people who have ADHD, but for those who don't have the disorder, it does what you'd expect a cocktail of amphetamines to do. Tough for the kids who get misdiagnosed, huh?
- TeaBrain 3y ago
  Amphetamines have a calming and focus-enhancing effect on nearly everyone. The idea that those who have ADHD have a unique experience in becoming calmer and more focused after taking amphetamines is an internet-born bro-science myth.
  - refurb 3y ago
    The side effects tell a different story. Common side effects of Adderall may include: stomach pain; loss of appetite; weight loss; mood changes; feeling nervous; fast heart rate; headache; dizziness; sleep problems (insomnia); https://www.drugs.com/adderall.html https://www.drugs.com/adderall.html
    - TeaBrain 3y ago
      Just as they do not uniquely benefit from amphetamines, people diagnosed with ADHD are also not uniquely resilient to the side effects.
      - refurb 3y ago
        Right, so your statement “no, everyone who takes amphetamines experiences a state of calmness” is incorrect.
        scrawl 3y ago
        not OP. but he did say "nearly everyone". long lists of side effects are common even for the most benign and common drugs. that's standard. for example i could say that the common side effects of tylenol[0] tell a different story: nausea, vomiting, anemia, rash, dyspnea, abnormal breath sounds, pulmonary edema, hypoxia, pleural effusion, stridor, wheezing, coughing, peripheral edema, hypertension, hypotension, tachycardia, chest pain, muscle spasms, insomnia [0] https://www.drugs.com/sfx/tylenol-side-effects.html https://www.drugs.com/sfx/tylenol-side-effects.html
hammyhavoc 3y ago
As someone with ADHD, if you think that's bad, you should see what they're probably like off the stimulants. They likely wouldn't have a job in the first place and would probably be MIA somewhere under a pile of laundry beneath an avalanche of unpaid bills and birthday presents they forgot to give people.
Danjoe4 3y ago
Amphetamines are "medication" in the loosest sense. The pathophysiology of the underlying condition is ill-defined, and most users of amphetamine-like drugs get the same focus-enhancing effects regardless of "condition". These drugs are dangerous, of questionable therapeutic benefit, and are schedule 2 (or banned in many countries) for a reason. They are over prescribed, especially to below average performers who want a boost. Everyone wants to believe they are actually really really smart but have a "condition" which makes them underperform. Don't worry this little pill will "fix" your brain.
rootsudo 3y ago
“ Sleeplessness, suddenly missing work, constantly forgetting to eat day after day, breakdowns, MIA in meetings, really poor code, and more. This has happened > 3 times in the past handful of years.” everything you’ve wrote here is typical ADHD. Being medicated for a chronic disorder is hard and while the medication is hard, It can signal the opposite - not addiction but someone who doesn’t want to take the medication to feel or act normal. I also don’t feel that it is over prescribed. In fact there is a huge lapse and stigma would being signaled out as neurodiverse. I would suggest to look into what is ADHD and typical symptoms and see how it overlays to a normal drug user non stimulant user. You’d find that it is 1:1 in what you described but does not correlate to drug user.
faeriechangling 3y ago
Most of what you described is symptomatic of ADHD without medication, so I think you’re confusing cause and effect here, aside from sleeplessness.

hirvi74 3y ago

My issue with the matter is that I have ADHD, and I didn't seek treatment because of wanting to perform better a my job. It's literally the difference between me keeping my job or not, not crashing my car into another person's vehicle, etc.. I still vastly under-perform compared to my peers despite being medicated. Any person that was taking stimulant medications without ADHD would absolutely blow me out of the water -- it's the main issue I have in regards to stimulants. It's be like a professional athlete taking steroids or other PEDs when competing against a high school aged sports team. When other people use stimulant medication for non-medical purposes then it causes me to be measured against an echelon of performance that is basically unobtainable i.e. the best I can function at is no longer "good enough." I mean, sure, there are probably a few other factors that also contribute to my issues other than just medication (lack of organization skills, past traumas, etc.), but it has been something I noticed even back when I was in college a decade ago. I knew plenty of people that faked symptoms to get a prescription. Meanwhile, I had to go through all kinds of testing, interviews, etc. to get legitimately diagnosed. However, I do not fault the individuals who take any substance medicinally or otherwise. We are all trying to make in this world, and I think a lot of our culture has created a demand that leaves many with no other options -- sink or swim.

sibeliuss 3y ago
Just to be clear, ADHD is certainly a real thing, and I have a lot of compassion for those who suffer it. My anecdotal story is all about being able to clearly identify when someone is suffering from addiction or drug abuse, having been there myself. Such outcomes are a natural side-effect of a culture that overprescribes addictive (and often very enjoyable) chemical stimulants.
- hirvi74 3y ago
  I'm sure you are well aware of the connection between ADHD and addiction to begin with. I am prescribed stimulants for ADHD. Just because you need something doesn't mean it can't be addictive (I know you didn't say otherwise). With that being said, I am without a doubt dependent on the medication (that's kind of the point), but am I addicted? Well, I ask myself that everyday. I would argue to some degree, I probably am too.
  - lazide 3y ago
    Chances are, if you’re worried about it that way, you aren’t.
    - sibeliuss 3y ago
      As someone who has been through the addiction loop, I can say a) it's a good thing that he's thinking that way, it is good to be conscious of these things; b) that even the slightest question about addiction points to something significant, something to watch very closely; and c) consciousness about these things can never be used as an excuse to ignore it.
      - lazide 3y ago
        Good points. However, it’s also an extremely common reason people with ADHD use to go off their meds, when looking in from the outside they clearly weren’t addicted by literally any definition of the word. It would be like if someone who suffered from chronic dehydration worried they were addicted to water because they were drinking the amount prescribed for them after having a medical diagnosis related to it, so they stopped. Then, of course, went back to the prior state which was ‘normal’ to them. Which is why it’s all best done under the supervision of a qualified professional who hopefully isn’t a fuckup.

junofan 3y ago

It is an ADA-recognized disability. You’d expect some trouble at work without reasonable accommodations. The treatment isn’t 100%, as you’ve identified.

zamnos 3y ago

The problem with this anecdote is that you don't know who is taking Adderall and isn't talking to you about it. That is, they're taking it regularly and successfully, and it's working for them. They're leading productive lives, but wouldn't be off their medication. There are people with terrible self-care habits (sleeping; eating), and sprinkling powerful stimulants on top of those bad habits is a recipe for disaster. The way I read this comment (in contrast to your followup to hirvi74), it sounds like, extrapolating from the 3+ people you know, that everyone who has ADD (an antiquated term) takes Adderall, are drug addicts, bad employees, and poor coders to boot. There's a reason why some people with ADHD don't talk about it at work and judgements based off an uncareful reading of anecdoes like yours are why.

tiedieconderoga 3y ago

Adderall treats people who have ADHD, but for those who don't have the disorder, it does what you'd expect a cocktail of amphetamines to do. Tough for the kids who get misdiagnosed, huh?

TeaBrain 3y ago
Amphetamines have a calming and focus-enhancing effect on nearly everyone. The idea that those who have ADHD have a unique experience in becoming calmer and more focused after taking amphetamines is an internet-born bro-science myth.
- refurb 3y ago
  The side effects tell a different story. Common side effects of Adderall may include: stomach pain; loss of appetite; weight loss; mood changes; feeling nervous; fast heart rate; headache; dizziness; sleep problems (insomnia); https://www.drugs.com/adderall.html https://www.drugs.com/adderall.html
  - TeaBrain 3y ago
    Just as they do not uniquely benefit from amphetamines, people diagnosed with ADHD are also not uniquely resilient to the side effects.
    - refurb 3y ago
      Right, so your statement “no, everyone who takes amphetamines experiences a state of calmness” is incorrect.
      - scrawl 3y ago
        not OP. but he did say "nearly everyone". long lists of side effects are common even for the most benign and common drugs. that's standard. for example i could say that the common side effects of tylenol[0] tell a different story: nausea, vomiting, anemia, rash, dyspnea, abnormal breath sounds, pulmonary edema, hypoxia, pleural effusion, stridor, wheezing, coughing, peripheral edema, hypertension, hypotension, tachycardia, chest pain, muscle spasms, insomnia [0] https://www.drugs.com/sfx/tylenol-side-effects.html https://www.drugs.com/sfx/tylenol-side-effects.html

hammyhavoc 3y ago

As someone with ADHD, if you think that's bad, you should see what they're probably like off the stimulants. They likely wouldn't have a job in the first place and would probably be MIA somewhere under a pile of laundry beneath an avalanche of unpaid bills and birthday presents they forgot to give people.

Danjoe4 3y ago

Amphetamines are "medication" in the loosest sense. The pathophysiology of the underlying condition is ill-defined, and most users of amphetamine-like drugs get the same focus-enhancing effects regardless of "condition". These drugs are dangerous, of questionable therapeutic benefit, and are schedule 2 (or banned in many countries) for a reason. They are over prescribed, especially to below average performers who want a boost. Everyone wants to believe they are actually really really smart but have a "condition" which makes them underperform. Don't worry this little pill will "fix" your brain.

rootsudo 3y ago

“ Sleeplessness, suddenly missing work, constantly forgetting to eat day after day, breakdowns, MIA in meetings, really poor code, and more. This has happened > 3 times in the past handful of years.” everything you’ve wrote here is typical ADHD. Being medicated for a chronic disorder is hard and while the medication is hard, It can signal the opposite - not addiction but someone who doesn’t want to take the medication to feel or act normal. I also don’t feel that it is over prescribed. In fact there is a huge lapse and stigma would being signaled out as neurodiverse. I would suggest to look into what is ADHD and typical symptoms and see how it overlays to a normal drug user non stimulant user. You’d find that it is 1:1 in what you described but does not correlate to drug user.

faeriechangling 3y ago

Most of what you described is symptomatic of ADHD without medication, so I think you’re confusing cause and effect here, aside from sleeplessness.