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It’s just a back door to obtaining “consent” for tracking and to leverage other data about you for ads.

by nr2x 3y ago

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
As much as I despise the tracking that happens, I don't see how this isn't a valid form of consent. Don't make a Google account and agree to Google's terms for making the account, or do and understand that consent has been provided.
- nr2x 3y ago
  Coerced consent for non-essential functions is illegal in many places, and that’s number is rapidly growing.
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
    This sign-in button is coerced consent? You can choose not to sign in. What is the coercion? > non-essential functions Are you sure you're not talking about cookie consent laws? (The reason "non-essential" is a qualifier for cookies is that, e.g., a log in session will require the use of cookies but is also considered "essential".) (Please also understand the appeal to authority in "is illegal in many places". That's aside from the point I bring up.)
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - nr2x 3y ago
      A business duty to comply with the law is not a rhetorical appeal to authority, it is a fact. Ask the accountant who wrote the check to the CNIL for the most recent cookie fine what they think.
      - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
        Your reply suggests you're not totally familiar with what "appeal to authority" means. Your argument (so far) is indeed an appeal to authority. "It's true because so-and-so says."
        nr2x 3y ago
        I am very familiar with rhetoric, and logical fallacies. You apparently are not. I am not saying it is true because do and so says, I’m saying it is true because Google paid the CNIL a large fine and similar legislation is being drafted around the world.
        lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
        > illegal in many places > comply with the law > Google paid the [authority] a large fine > legislation is being drafted This is the authority to which your argument appeals.
        nr2x 3y ago
        Appeal to authority as a logical fallacy or rhetorical weakness refers to saying something is true by virtue of an authority figure saying it. Saying the king is wearing a crown is a statement of fact, not an appeal to authority. Saying Google paid a fine is a fact, not an appeal to authority.
        lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
        This is where the confusion lies: > Saying Google paid a fine is a fact My point has been that Google believing they have consent for tracking usage of Bard is “valid”. Pointing to the fact that Google paid a fine to a particular legal authority as a reason for understanding that this consent is “not valid” is the appeal to authority. (Please also consider that you have “shifted the goalposts”.) Edit: I should apologize for the above parenthetical about shifting the goalposts. In retrospect this appears more as a regular misunderstanding. I should have tried to clarify earlier. It’s not an excuse but an explanation: I believe I was simply frustrated by the misunderstanding. I am sorry for that accusation.
    - thfuran 3y ago
      >Please also understand the appeal to authority in "is illegal in many places". What exactly do you think "appeal to authority" means in this context?
      - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
        The argument being made is that Google’s consent for tracking asserted in their ToS is not “valid” (admittedly, my word) because a law (the authority) says it is so. This is ignoring that my argument just happens to disagree with this authority. I think it’s because I said “valid” which might sound like valid “in terms of the law” (and that’s actually still debatable). I mean to say it more philosophically. Per my opinion, it’s “valid” as informed consent for new accounts. Basically, I’m arguing that these “many places” shouldn’t have made this form of consent legally invalid if that is indeed the case. (Of course, it gets hairier when considering existing accounts and unilateral changes to the ToS; I still don’t exactly think I am mistaken with my understanding but I seem to have expressed it poorly.)

It’s just a back door to obtaining “consent” for tracking and to leverage other data about you for ads.

by nr2x 3y ago

It’s just a back door to obtaining “consent” for tracking and to leverage other data about you for ads.

As much as I despise the tracking that happens, I don't see how this isn't a valid form of consent. Don't make a Google account and agree to Google's terms for making the account, or do and understand that consent has been provided.

nr2x 3y ago
Coerced consent for non-essential functions is illegal in many places, and that’s number is rapidly growing.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
  This sign-in button is coerced consent? You can choose not to sign in. What is the coercion? > non-essential functions Are you sure you're not talking about cookie consent laws? (The reason "non-essential" is a qualifier for cookies is that, e.g., a log in session will require the use of cookies but is also considered "essential".) (Please also understand the appeal to authority in "is illegal in many places". That's aside from the point I bring up.)
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - nr2x 3y ago
    A business duty to comply with the law is not a rhetorical appeal to authority, it is a fact. Ask the accountant who wrote the check to the CNIL for the most recent cookie fine what they think.
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
      Your reply suggests you're not totally familiar with what "appeal to authority" means. Your argument (so far) is indeed an appeal to authority. "It's true because so-and-so says."
      - nr2x 3y ago
        I am very familiar with rhetoric, and logical fallacies. You apparently are not. I am not saying it is true because do and so says, I’m saying it is true because Google paid the CNIL a large fine and similar legislation is being drafted around the world.
        lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
        > illegal in many places > comply with the law > Google paid the [authority] a large fine > legislation is being drafted This is the authority to which your argument appeals.
        nr2x 3y ago
        Appeal to authority as a logical fallacy or rhetorical weakness refers to saying something is true by virtue of an authority figure saying it. Saying the king is wearing a crown is a statement of fact, not an appeal to authority. Saying Google paid a fine is a fact, not an appeal to authority.
        lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
        This is where the confusion lies: > Saying Google paid a fine is a fact My point has been that Google believing they have consent for tracking usage of Bard is “valid”. Pointing to the fact that Google paid a fine to a particular legal authority as a reason for understanding that this consent is “not valid” is the appeal to authority. (Please also consider that you have “shifted the goalposts”.) Edit: I should apologize for the above parenthetical about shifting the goalposts. In retrospect this appears more as a regular misunderstanding. I should have tried to clarify earlier. It’s not an excuse but an explanation: I believe I was simply frustrated by the misunderstanding. I am sorry for that accusation.
  - thfuran 3y ago
    >Please also understand the appeal to authority in "is illegal in many places". What exactly do you think "appeal to authority" means in this context?
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
      The argument being made is that Google’s consent for tracking asserted in their ToS is not “valid” (admittedly, my word) because a law (the authority) says it is so. This is ignoring that my argument just happens to disagree with this authority. I think it’s because I said “valid” which might sound like valid “in terms of the law” (and that’s actually still debatable). I mean to say it more philosophically. Per my opinion, it’s “valid” as informed consent for new accounts. Basically, I’m arguing that these “many places” shouldn’t have made this form of consent legally invalid if that is indeed the case. (Of course, it gets hairier when considering existing accounts and unilateral changes to the ToS; I still don’t exactly think I am mistaken with my understanding but I seem to have expressed it poorly.)