4 ms·

> Cheating ultimately cheats oneself, but it's very galling that it's now becoming accepted as okay behavior in American society Man, you crushed it here, so t

> Cheating ultimately cheats oneself, but it's very galling that it's now becoming accepted as okay behavior in American society Man, you crushed it here, so true.

mattgreenrocks 3y ago
The post-pandemic economic environment is toxic. Everyone seems to have come out of the pandemic convinced that they need to tighten whatever screws they have to get theirs. And that triggers other people to do the same thing. Cheating enters the realm of possibility because people (correctly and incorrectly) believe others are doing the same thing. It's gross and feeds on itself. I'm not sure what will help it get better.
- AlexandrB 3y ago
  It's pretty simple. There are few incentives for integrity and few disincentives for lack thereof. This shows up in all kind of contexts - from business leaders, to social media "influencers", to athletes, to politicians. I'm not sure why anyone would expect "the average Joe" to maintain some semblance of integrity when very few successful individuals do the same. The overall message is pretty clear - if you want to succeed, you will need to cheat.
  - throw9away6 3y ago
    People that don’t cheat much think that cheating is easy. Often times I see cheaters put in almost the same amount of effort as non cheaters the cheaters just get a higher probability of success.
    - kevviiinn 3y ago
      But the long term success for cheating is actually much lower, those who actually learned things will do better in the long term even if they have a lower probability of short term success Many humans seem to be incredibly short sighted
      - codebreake 3y ago
        I disagree, I don’t believe Trump and Elon musk are ethical and they are very successful in terms of power and money.
        inglor_cz 3y ago
        That said, Falcon 9 actually flies and is a very reliable rocket; SpaceX does not seem to be "cheating" in the classical sense of the word, but making money due to genuine innovative capability.
        kevviiinn 3y ago
        The success of those two are bad for the country long term, the idea that being super rich is success is also bad
      - mattgreenrocks 3y ago
        > the long term success for cheating is actually much lower, those who actually learned things will do better in the long term even if they have a lower probability of short term success I want to believe this, but I'm not sure it's always true. Timing of opportunities matters a lot. Someone who is not as skilled in programming probably cheated their way into a FAANG job during the height of the pandemic and made absolute bank, perhaps being able to sock away $200k-$300k since then. That money could then be invested and start compounding, leading to a materially different outcome from someone else who played it by the rules and was better. The long-term for the cheater might be to simply find a less demanding job and continue riding the prestige hike they got when they snuck into the FAANG job.
      - throw9away6 3y ago
        The cheaters learn to cheat better that can be a better or equivalent level skill. Human lifetime are sort and human opportunity windows are even shorter. Not cheating put you at the mercy of variance as many now dead great people died in poverty
        kevviiinn 3y ago
- bumby 3y ago
  When resources are perceived scarce, it tends to incentivize worse behavior.
red-iron-pine 3y ago
"Fake it till you make it" has been a thing for a long time -- hence the catchy phrase. When did this wonderful meritocracy exist? Where? I think back to Jobs and Woz, and how he got him to hack a project to win a contest, and then didn't tell Woz and kept the money. It's been here since day 1.
- mensetmanusman 3y ago
  Some things are different structurally. Eg about 50 years ago most kids grew up with both of their parents, today it’s about half. Less adult time per child means a generation with far less formation. It has to collapse before it gets better, but it will take centuries to get back to Rome levels of violence and back stabbing.
  - mchanson 3y ago
    Actually its over 70% of kids in USA grow up with two parents still. 50 years ago it was 85%, but that would have been with a lot of unhappy and abusive marriages that now with no-fault divorce are able to be dissolved. Also child sexual and physical abuse has reduced during this same time frame. "According to David Finkelhor who tracked Child Maltreatment Report (NCANDS) data from 1990 to 2010, sexual abuse had declined 62% from 1992 to 2009 and the long-term trend for physical abuse was also down by 56% since 1992." from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abuse We have a lot of problems, but your understand of the issues are poor.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      What's the relationship between abusive marriages and no-fault divorce? Won't abusive people be the easiest to divorce with fault?
      - smileysteve 3y ago
        Fault divorce is more expensive and requires burden of proof. Abuse isn't always reported, and abusers often manipulate or lie.
wing-_-nuts 3y ago
I think you absolutely are cheating yourself if you cheat on something you're supposed to be learning. On the other hand, I have a tendency to be brutally honest about my own knowledge and capabilities, and it has bitten me multiple times. I've gotten negative performance review feedback from management that was word for word from the 'things I think I can improve'. I've gotten passed over for jobs and promotions because I don't do a good enough job of 'selling' my experience. Basically, the most successful software engineers I've met also have the ability to bullshit with the best used car salesmen, and it's hard to argue my unwillingness to do so hasn't held me back.
- justin_oaks 3y ago
  >brutally honest about my own knowledge and capabilities Is this a lack of confidence? > I've gotten passed over for jobs and promotions because I don't do a good enough job of 'selling' my experience. Selling your experience IS an important skill. Other factors may have played a part too. > successful software engineers I've met also have the ability to bullshit Is it their bullshit that gets them to be successful? Or is it that they're more friendly, tactful, and and positive? To be clear, I don't doubt that you're telling it as you see it. I'm just wondering if your perceptions match the reality. If someone is always talking about how bad they are at something, then I'll interpret that as the person being negative, lacking confidence, and pessimistic. That's not the kind of person I'd want to be around in general, let alone hire.
  - wing-_-nuts 3y ago
    Maybe 'bullshitting' was too strong of a word. I was always raised that you don't brag about yourself, you don't take credit for things you didn't really do, and you don't over promise and under deliver. As I've gained experience, I've learned that people can take self deprecating things as gospel and as a worker it's your job to talk up your abilities and invitations to identify 'things you can improve' have to be spun in a positive way. As much as I hate to admit it, salesmanship, presentation, and ones ability to 'smooth talk' seems to get you further than raw technical ability. I don't hold it against devs that are able to do that, it's just been an adjustment for me.
throw9away6 3y ago
The guy that’s getting payed more than you because he cheated into a higher paying position is happy to have you believe that.

> Cheating ultimately cheats oneself, but it's very galling that it's now becoming accepted as okay behavior in American society Man, you crushed it here, so true.

mattgreenrocks 3y ago

The post-pandemic economic environment is toxic. Everyone seems to have come out of the pandemic convinced that they need to tighten whatever screws they have to get theirs. And that triggers other people to do the same thing. Cheating enters the realm of possibility because people (correctly and incorrectly) believe others are doing the same thing. It's gross and feeds on itself. I'm not sure what will help it get better.

AlexandrB 3y ago
It's pretty simple. There are few incentives for integrity and few disincentives for lack thereof. This shows up in all kind of contexts - from business leaders, to social media "influencers", to athletes, to politicians. I'm not sure why anyone would expect "the average Joe" to maintain some semblance of integrity when very few successful individuals do the same. The overall message is pretty clear - if you want to succeed, you will need to cheat.
- throw9away6 3y ago
  People that don’t cheat much think that cheating is easy. Often times I see cheaters put in almost the same amount of effort as non cheaters the cheaters just get a higher probability of success.
  - kevviiinn 3y ago
    But the long term success for cheating is actually much lower, those who actually learned things will do better in the long term even if they have a lower probability of short term success Many humans seem to be incredibly short sighted
    - codebreake 3y ago
      I disagree, I don’t believe Trump and Elon musk are ethical and they are very successful in terms of power and money.
      - inglor_cz 3y ago
        That said, Falcon 9 actually flies and is a very reliable rocket; SpaceX does not seem to be "cheating" in the classical sense of the word, but making money due to genuine innovative capability.
      - kevviiinn 3y ago
        The success of those two are bad for the country long term, the idea that being super rich is success is also bad
    - mattgreenrocks 3y ago
      > the long term success for cheating is actually much lower, those who actually learned things will do better in the long term even if they have a lower probability of short term success I want to believe this, but I'm not sure it's always true. Timing of opportunities matters a lot. Someone who is not as skilled in programming probably cheated their way into a FAANG job during the height of the pandemic and made absolute bank, perhaps being able to sock away $200k-$300k since then. That money could then be invested and start compounding, leading to a materially different outcome from someone else who played it by the rules and was better. The long-term for the cheater might be to simply find a less demanding job and continue riding the prestige hike they got when they snuck into the FAANG job.
    - throw9away6 3y ago
      The cheaters learn to cheat better that can be a better or equivalent level skill. Human lifetime are sort and human opportunity windows are even shorter. Not cheating put you at the mercy of variance as many now dead great people died in poverty
      - kevviiinn 3y ago
bumby 3y ago
When resources are perceived scarce, it tends to incentivize worse behavior.

red-iron-pine 3y ago

"Fake it till you make it" has been a thing for a long time -- hence the catchy phrase. When did this wonderful meritocracy exist? Where? I think back to Jobs and Woz, and how he got him to hack a project to win a contest, and then didn't tell Woz and kept the money. It's been here since day 1.

mensetmanusman 3y ago
Some things are different structurally. Eg about 50 years ago most kids grew up with both of their parents, today it’s about half. Less adult time per child means a generation with far less formation. It has to collapse before it gets better, but it will take centuries to get back to Rome levels of violence and back stabbing.
- mchanson 3y ago
  Actually its over 70% of kids in USA grow up with two parents still. 50 years ago it was 85%, but that would have been with a lot of unhappy and abusive marriages that now with no-fault divorce are able to be dissolved. Also child sexual and physical abuse has reduced during this same time frame. "According to David Finkelhor who tracked Child Maltreatment Report (NCANDS) data from 1990 to 2010, sexual abuse had declined 62% from 1992 to 2009 and the long-term trend for physical abuse was also down by 56% since 1992." from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abuse We have a lot of problems, but your understand of the issues are poor.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    What's the relationship between abusive marriages and no-fault divorce? Won't abusive people be the easiest to divorce with fault?
    - smileysteve 3y ago
      Fault divorce is more expensive and requires burden of proof. Abuse isn't always reported, and abusers often manipulate or lie.

wing-_-nuts 3y ago

I think you absolutely are cheating yourself if you cheat on something you're supposed to be learning. On the other hand, I have a tendency to be brutally honest about my own knowledge and capabilities, and it has bitten me multiple times. I've gotten negative performance review feedback from management that was word for word from the 'things I think I can improve'. I've gotten passed over for jobs and promotions because I don't do a good enough job of 'selling' my experience. Basically, the most successful software engineers I've met also have the ability to bullshit with the best used car salesmen, and it's hard to argue my unwillingness to do so hasn't held me back.

justin_oaks 3y ago
>brutally honest about my own knowledge and capabilities Is this a lack of confidence? > I've gotten passed over for jobs and promotions because I don't do a good enough job of 'selling' my experience. Selling your experience IS an important skill. Other factors may have played a part too. > successful software engineers I've met also have the ability to bullshit Is it their bullshit that gets them to be successful? Or is it that they're more friendly, tactful, and and positive? To be clear, I don't doubt that you're telling it as you see it. I'm just wondering if your perceptions match the reality. If someone is always talking about how bad they are at something, then I'll interpret that as the person being negative, lacking confidence, and pessimistic. That's not the kind of person I'd want to be around in general, let alone hire.
- wing-_-nuts 3y ago
  Maybe 'bullshitting' was too strong of a word. I was always raised that you don't brag about yourself, you don't take credit for things you didn't really do, and you don't over promise and under deliver. As I've gained experience, I've learned that people can take self deprecating things as gospel and as a worker it's your job to talk up your abilities and invitations to identify 'things you can improve' have to be spun in a positive way. As much as I hate to admit it, salesmanship, presentation, and ones ability to 'smooth talk' seems to get you further than raw technical ability. I don't hold it against devs that are able to do that, it's just been an adjustment for me.

throw9away6 3y ago

The guy that’s getting payed more than you because he cheated into a higher paying position is happy to have you believe that.