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Being technically better is usually not a good enough reason to be incompatible. I'm not sure why people don't get this, but it is almost always true. Starting

Being technically better is usually not a good enough reason to be incompatible. I'm not sure why people don't get this, but it is almost always true. Starting from scratch, just because you can theoretically design a better system, is one of the worst thing to do to users. Theoretically better also rarely wins in the marketplace anyway. If you want a slightly lighter position: Software needs to be built to be migrated from and to, as a base level requirement. Those communities that do this tend end up with happy users who don't spend lots of toil trying to keep up. This is true regardless of whether the new thing is compatible with the old - if it doesn't take any energy or time, and just works, people care less what you change. Yes, it is hard. yes, there are choices you make sometimes that burn you down the road. That is 100% guaranteed to happen. So make software that enable change to occur. The overall the amount of developer toil and waste created en masse by people who think they are making something "better", usually with no before/after data (or at best, small useless metrics sampled from a very small group), almost always vastly dwarfs all improvement that occurs as a result. If you want to spend time helping developers/users, then understand where they spend their time, not where you spend your time.

zaphar 3y ago
I wholeheartedly agree. From a purely technical analysis ATProto looks better as a protocol to me. But I don't use Bluesky I use ActivityPub because the people I want to be connected to are there and not on Bluesky. I do think you could probably make improvements to ActivityPub that reduce operational costs. It's not something I feel the need to tackle right this moment because my usage doesn't incure those costs really.
comte7092 3y ago
Something that I think your analysis is missing is that with a decentralized product, ops is also user experience. The whole point is that it needs to be reasonably easy for people to run and scale their own servers. If people are constantly being burned out, quit, or run out of money, then it has an impact on regular users.
- DannyBee 3y ago
  Assuming you have meaningful data that shows that, instead of handwavy conjecture, sure. I don't think most projects do ;)
  - comte7092 3y ago
    What I’m saying is that server admins should be considered users as well. That’s not something that needs to be driven by data.
pessimizer 3y ago
I think this is mostly silly. Barely anyone uses ActivityPub. If BlueSky only moderately catches on and 100M people start using it, the total number of ActivityPub users would be a rounding error. > If you want to spend time helping developers/users, then understand where they spend their time, not where you spend your time. You're spending your time with ActivityPub, so this advice should apply to you, too. The bulk of potential users are spending their time on anything but ActivityPub. And as for developers, one of course needs to attract them, but I hear the people behind BlueSky have a couple of bucks, the ambition to create a huge potential new market, and a track record of creating a couple of things. I don't think they'll have trouble finding developers. If BlueSky comes up with a better architecture, ActivityPub clients should rebase. BlueSky should pretend they don't exist, except if they have some nice schemas or solved some problem efficiently, try to maintain compatibility with that unless there's even the slightest reason to deviate. Didn't ActivityPub have enough of a head start? Why didn't ActivityPub just use Diaspora? Why prioritize ActivityPub over OStatus?
- DannyBee 3y ago
  "I think this is mostly silly. Barely anyone uses ActivityPub. If BlueSky only moderately catches on and 100M people start using it, the total number of ActivityPub users would be a rounding error." Says everyone everywhere who thinks they made something better! "If BlueSky comes up with a better architecture, ActivityPub clients should rebase. BlueSky should pretend they don't exist, except if they have some nice schemas or solved some problem efficiently, try to maintain compatibility with that unless there's even the slightest reason to deviate." Look, i'm not suggesting whoever does it first gets to dictate it, but literally everyone thinks their thing will be better enough to attract lots of users or be worth it, and most never actually do/are. They do, however, cause lots and lots and lots of toil! Your position is exactly what leads people over this cliff - better architecture does not matter. it doesn't. Technical goodness is not an end unto itself. Its a means, often to reduce cost or increase efficiency, and unfortunately rarely, deliver new features or better experience. Reducing cost or increasing efficiency are great. But architecture is not the product. The product is the product.
moritz 3y ago
> The overall the amount of developer toil and waste created en masse by people who think they are making something "better", usually with no before/after data […], almost always vastly dwarfs all improvement that occurs as a result. So, why is the Fedi not built on RSS/Websub/etc. then?
- DannyBee 3y ago
  Don't know enough about this particular topic to offer a view, but in general, because people care more about releasing their better thing and pretending they are helping than the hard work of actually helping This is true everywhere?
- account42 3y ago
  https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/

zaphar 3y ago

I wholeheartedly agree. From a purely technical analysis ATProto looks better as a protocol to me. But I don't use Bluesky I use ActivityPub because the people I want to be connected to are there and not on Bluesky. I do think you could probably make improvements to ActivityPub that reduce operational costs. It's not something I feel the need to tackle right this moment because my usage doesn't incure those costs really.

comte7092 3y ago

Something that I think your analysis is missing is that with a decentralized product, ops is also user experience. The whole point is that it needs to be reasonably easy for people to run and scale their own servers. If people are constantly being burned out, quit, or run out of money, then it has an impact on regular users.

DannyBee 3y ago
Assuming you have meaningful data that shows that, instead of handwavy conjecture, sure. I don't think most projects do ;)
- comte7092 3y ago
  What I’m saying is that server admins should be considered users as well. That’s not something that needs to be driven by data.

pessimizer 3y ago

I think this is mostly silly. Barely anyone uses ActivityPub. If BlueSky only moderately catches on and 100M people start using it, the total number of ActivityPub users would be a rounding error. > If you want to spend time helping developers/users, then understand where they spend their time, not where you spend your time. You're spending your time with ActivityPub, so this advice should apply to you, too. The bulk of potential users are spending their time on anything but ActivityPub. And as for developers, one of course needs to attract them, but I hear the people behind BlueSky have a couple of bucks, the ambition to create a huge potential new market, and a track record of creating a couple of things. I don't think they'll have trouble finding developers. If BlueSky comes up with a better architecture, ActivityPub clients should rebase. BlueSky should pretend they don't exist, except if they have some nice schemas or solved some problem efficiently, try to maintain compatibility with that unless there's even the slightest reason to deviate. Didn't ActivityPub have enough of a head start? Why didn't ActivityPub just use Diaspora? Why prioritize ActivityPub over OStatus?

DannyBee 3y ago
"I think this is mostly silly. Barely anyone uses ActivityPub. If BlueSky only moderately catches on and 100M people start using it, the total number of ActivityPub users would be a rounding error." Says everyone everywhere who thinks they made something better! "If BlueSky comes up with a better architecture, ActivityPub clients should rebase. BlueSky should pretend they don't exist, except if they have some nice schemas or solved some problem efficiently, try to maintain compatibility with that unless there's even the slightest reason to deviate." Look, i'm not suggesting whoever does it first gets to dictate it, but literally everyone thinks their thing will be better enough to attract lots of users or be worth it, and most never actually do/are. They do, however, cause lots and lots and lots of toil! Your position is exactly what leads people over this cliff - better architecture does not matter. it doesn't. Technical goodness is not an end unto itself. Its a means, often to reduce cost or increase efficiency, and unfortunately rarely, deliver new features or better experience. Reducing cost or increasing efficiency are great. But architecture is not the product. The product is the product.

moritz 3y ago

> The overall the amount of developer toil and waste created en masse by people who think they are making something "better", usually with no before/after data […], almost always vastly dwarfs all improvement that occurs as a result. So, why is the Fedi not built on RSS/Websub/etc. then?

DannyBee 3y ago
Don't know enough about this particular topic to offer a view, but in general, because people care more about releasing their better thing and pretending they are helping than the hard work of actually helping This is true everywhere?
account42 3y ago
https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/