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I’m going to go out on a limb here and be “that guy”. But in my experience, there’s a big difference between perspectives on cheating in the US vs perspectives

I’m going to go out on a limb here and be “that guy”. But in my experience, there’s a big difference between perspectives on cheating in the US vs perspectives in… let’s just say broadly… “some other nations”. I say this as an American who has lived overseas much of my life and, lest you think I’m just a flag waving parrot for the US, prob prefer living overseas and am more than willing to criticize the heck out of the US on a range of topics when relevant. I prob shouldn’t be afraid of listing out these specific cultures where cheating is not just ok but encouraged- as these are things that come from multiple occasions of direct experience- but I’d rather not make this look like a racist judgement on certain cultures. I’m not saying here that there aren’t Americans who cheat and I’d be lying if I said I had never cheated on an exam in undergrad. And there are certainly cultures outside of the US that on average are at least as intolerant of cheating or more so. But I think the big difference between that and a lot of the opinions I’ve seen in comments here and in the article is that- at least in my case- these were slipups done in moments of desperation and I damn sure wouldn’t be bragging about it on a message board and am overall somewhat ashamed at having done it. Feel free to downvote me or call me a moron…

berjin 3y ago
It's the elephant in the room and it has small ears.
cptskippy 3y ago
> there’s a big difference between perspectives Here's my take... The difference between the United States and other countries is how we internalize things. We're very much guilt or shame driven because of the heavy influences of puritanical, fundamentalist, and catholic religions. It's not that Americans don't cheat/indulge/whatever, it's that they feel bad about doing it. And that doesn't stop Americans from doing things, they just try to hide or repent for what they've done. * Thinking about it a little more, there are also people here with a strong sense of entitlement and bewildering moral fortitude. They'll break down in tears or want to start a fight if you cuss in their presence but have no qualms about "moving" to Florida to dodge paying taxes or vehicle registration fees.
- now__what 3y ago
  Agree that the US can be pretty puritanical, so some of the aversion to cheating is driven by guilt/shame. But on the other hand, when you grow up without the necessity to lie/cheat, and when it isn't normalized, you never learn the methods to get away with it, and sometimes that's enough of a deterrent. There are things in my life I'd rather lie about, but I don't because I never learned to lie convincingly. The same with cheating. Figuring out how to cheat on a test/interview sounds like a way more effortful and stressful experience than acting honestly (I shudder to imagine how it compounds imposter syndrome). Imo "moving" to Florida (and similar tactics) got normalized, so it's easier for people to learn how to do it from a friend etc. so they do it more. No moralizing necessary.
  - cptskippy 3y ago
    > Figuring out how to cheat on a test/interview sounds like a way more effortful and stressful experience than acting honestly That's easier said than done when the market is expecting unrealistic job experience, requiring coding tests of knowledge that won't be leverages for the job, and asking candidates to participate in ridiculous interview processes. For someone with an established resume it's manageable but for candidates fresh out of school without much work experience they're faced with a hostile hiring process. It's reasonable to understand that they would feel the need to cheat to even get a foot in the door. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hirings-new-red-line-why-newcomers-cant-land-35-jobs-george-anders/ https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hirings-new-red-line-why-newc...
prox 3y ago
My Russian friend frequently mentions that bribery and cheating is a national sport over there. If you want to get anything done that is. I am sure countries where it is prevalent know so.
hnthrway 3y ago
No, I've had acquaintances who believed cheating made them smarter than non-cheaters
- yamtaddle 3y ago
  Savvier or more cunning—yeah, probably so.
- renewiltord 3y ago
  In a sense, I'm in that category because I paid for zero textbooks. Instead I photocopied them at the library. I imagine if I had to I would have probably paid for them. By the laws of the land I'm a cheater. And so be it.
  - mock-possum 3y ago
    Nah that's not cheating, that's piracy, I did the same thing as a broke college kid - copying is not theft. Information wants to be free.
dilawar 3y ago
In my country, India, cheating in university is rampant. But there were more than a few of my classmates, who didn't. On average, it sad to see all that cheating. Aren't you saying you are incompetent by cheating?
- solarmist 3y ago
  Yup. Pretty much. Or you don’t believe this material/test will affect your future.
dennis_jeeves1 3y ago
>Feel free to downvote me or call me a moron… You are actually being very astute. One of the reasons (there are of course more reasons) that America does so well is that most common citizens are relatively honest. Consequently in many third world countries corruption is rife, not only is it tolerated it is often encouraged.
TrackerFF 3y ago
Yes, it is sometimes a cultural thing. In some countries, cheating/gaming the system is seen as a noble thing. It is seen as a big "fuck you" to the system / the man / whatever. If you get away with it, it is not you who are wrong - it is simply the system that is too poorly designed. In other countries, cheating is just too normalized because the stakes are so high, and the competition is too great. I'm just going to throw out India and China - not because everyone there cheats, but because every "edge" you can gain against your competition is fair game. The reward is not only life changing for you, but for your whole family. Maybe even your neighbors. And it is not to say that they would cheat each other directly, like scamming money off the other guy - but if you're the competition, then the gloves are off.

berjin 3y ago

It's the elephant in the room and it has small ears.

cptskippy 3y ago

> there’s a big difference between perspectives Here's my take... The difference between the United States and other countries is how we internalize things. We're very much guilt or shame driven because of the heavy influences of puritanical, fundamentalist, and catholic religions. It's not that Americans don't cheat/indulge/whatever, it's that they feel bad about doing it. And that doesn't stop Americans from doing things, they just try to hide or repent for what they've done. * Thinking about it a little more, there are also people here with a strong sense of entitlement and bewildering moral fortitude. They'll break down in tears or want to start a fight if you cuss in their presence but have no qualms about "moving" to Florida to dodge paying taxes or vehicle registration fees.

now__what 3y ago
Agree that the US can be pretty puritanical, so some of the aversion to cheating is driven by guilt/shame. But on the other hand, when you grow up without the necessity to lie/cheat, and when it isn't normalized, you never learn the methods to get away with it, and sometimes that's enough of a deterrent. There are things in my life I'd rather lie about, but I don't because I never learned to lie convincingly. The same with cheating. Figuring out how to cheat on a test/interview sounds like a way more effortful and stressful experience than acting honestly (I shudder to imagine how it compounds imposter syndrome). Imo "moving" to Florida (and similar tactics) got normalized, so it's easier for people to learn how to do it from a friend etc. so they do it more. No moralizing necessary.
- cptskippy 3y ago
  > Figuring out how to cheat on a test/interview sounds like a way more effortful and stressful experience than acting honestly That's easier said than done when the market is expecting unrealistic job experience, requiring coding tests of knowledge that won't be leverages for the job, and asking candidates to participate in ridiculous interview processes. For someone with an established resume it's manageable but for candidates fresh out of school without much work experience they're faced with a hostile hiring process. It's reasonable to understand that they would feel the need to cheat to even get a foot in the door. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hirings-new-red-line-why-newcomers-cant-land-35-jobs-george-anders/ https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hirings-new-red-line-why-newc...

prox 3y ago

My Russian friend frequently mentions that bribery and cheating is a national sport over there. If you want to get anything done that is. I am sure countries where it is prevalent know so.

hnthrway 3y ago

No, I've had acquaintances who believed cheating made them smarter than non-cheaters

yamtaddle 3y ago
Savvier or more cunning—yeah, probably so.
renewiltord 3y ago
In a sense, I'm in that category because I paid for zero textbooks. Instead I photocopied them at the library. I imagine if I had to I would have probably paid for them. By the laws of the land I'm a cheater. And so be it.
- mock-possum 3y ago
  Nah that's not cheating, that's piracy, I did the same thing as a broke college kid - copying is not theft. Information wants to be free.

dilawar 3y ago

In my country, India, cheating in university is rampant. But there were more than a few of my classmates, who didn't. On average, it sad to see all that cheating. Aren't you saying you are incompetent by cheating?

solarmist 3y ago
Yup. Pretty much. Or you don’t believe this material/test will affect your future.

dennis_jeeves1 3y ago

>Feel free to downvote me or call me a moron… You are actually being very astute. One of the reasons (there are of course more reasons) that America does so well is that most common citizens are relatively honest. Consequently in many third world countries corruption is rife, not only is it tolerated it is often encouraged.

TrackerFF 3y ago

Yes, it is sometimes a cultural thing. In some countries, cheating/gaming the system is seen as a noble thing. It is seen as a big "fuck you" to the system / the man / whatever. If you get away with it, it is not you who are wrong - it is simply the system that is too poorly designed. In other countries, cheating is just too normalized because the stakes are so high, and the competition is too great. I'm just going to throw out India and China - not because everyone there cheats, but because every "edge" you can gain against your competition is fair game. The reward is not only life changing for you, but for your whole family. Maybe even your neighbors. And it is not to say that they would cheat each other directly, like scamming money off the other guy - but if you're the competition, then the gloves are off.