4 ms·

As a casual exercise, I would suggest you look for a graph of lynchings, riots, and raids in India especially of minorities and "others" for varying levels of t

by windex 3y ago

As a casual exercise, I would suggest you look for a graph of lynchings, riots, and raids in India especially of minorities and "others" for varying levels of trivial reasons by groups associated with the ruling party with patronage and overt support from it. Every festival season is open season for riots in many places. Execution style public hit jobs bypassing "due process" on rivals, criminals, and others are becoming more common. I would also have you take a hard look at the fascist speeches of sitting ministers advocating for violence in India. All of these are documented and the perpetrators and sponsors of this are in government without consequence. To make matters worse, the administration seems to be gnawing at some independence the supreme court shows by wanting to take over the appointments of Judges. It even gives judges plum positions post retirement for favorable judgements. Need I say more? Without a course correction, I'll give it 10 years.

screye 3y ago
We seem to disagree on the basic facts. Don't think anything productive will come out of this. I WILL save this comment and come back to it in 10 years just to be petty. (or eat my own words if it goes that way)
- airocker 3y ago
  Are you accepting that no amount of contrary data in 10 years would change your mind?
  - screye 3y ago
    I'd hope that 'total collapse' would be self evident enough that I would not have to look at the data. But, Good data would convince me. for social collapse, 'Pew Research' has conducted stellar surveys. I'd start there. Another solid metric is low-income refugees. If a measurable number of low-income minorities start leaving India for countries of slightly higher average income (eg: Bangladesh, Philippines, Indonesia), then it's either a sign of collapse or religious authoritarianism. Differential rights is another sign. say for instance, if there exist specific laws that only Indian minorities have to follow nation-wide. As for press freedoms, every political opposition party should get to have their own newspaper that can be freely shared on social media. ie. exception to exclude any party that actively seeks independence from India. Private universities should be allowed to teach anything that is constitutional, ie: don't teach violent fundamentalism or birth based bigotry. I should be able to call Modi any non-caste-based slur (Fascist, Bigot, Loser, etc.) on social media without getting a case thrown against me or violent assaulted on the streets. The front page of the Caravan or Scroll.in (online subscription based news media, subscription so I know they will be alive unlike ad reliant ones) should still contain a scathing accusation towards the BJP as it always has. For economics, poverty and safety, the numbers should be easier to obtain. Proxy metrics like electricity availability, internet availability, infrastructure building and use rate, etc. are also great. Those are my metrics on 3 fronts.
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xNeil 3y ago
There were a total of 117 lynchings in India in 2019, compared to 41 for the US in the same time period. This is the same number of lynchings on a per capita basis - while 117 lynchings is a 117 too many, the number is effectively negligible in a country of 1.2 billion people. Execution style hit jobs on rivals? When did these happen? Are you simply making up executions in your mind? Claiming India will collapse in 10 years is one of the weirdest statements I've heard in a long time. Which countries will not collapse according to your standards then? I'm honestly asking - no major country seems to be surviving the next 10 years as per your worldview. I'm open to debate, but you seem to be inventing executions in thin air. Sources: https://ncrb.gov.in/en/crime-in-india-2019 https://ncrb.gov.in/en/crime-in-india-2019 https://indianexpress.com/article/india/117-lynching-incidents-in-2019-133-deaths-ncrb-7140197/ https://indianexpress.com/article/india/117-lynching-inciden... "ADL Report: At Least 50 White Supremacist Murders in 2018" by the Anti-Defamation League: https://www.adl.org/news/press-releases/adl-report-at-least-50-white-supremacist-murders-in-2018 https://www.adl.org/news/press-releases/adl-report-at-least-... "What We Know: The Far-Right and Extremism in 2019" by the Anti-Defamation League: https://www.adl.org/resources/reports/what-we-know-the-far-right-and-extremism-in-2019 https://www.adl.org/resources/reports/what-we-know-the-far-r...
- windex 3y ago
  >Execution style hit jobs on rivals? When did these happen? You haven't heard of Uttar Pradesh?
  - xNeil 3y ago
    I see what you're getting to - while you're not wrong, you're not right either. They're not carrying hitjobs on rivals or opponents - they're eliminating gang leaders and major criminals. The judiciary is either afraid of giving these gangsters actual sentences, or have been bribed by the gangsters. To solve this, the police has effectively taken the execution of justice into their own hand. I know it may sound absurd, and the idea of the police taking matters into their own hands would normally scare me, but Uttar Pradesh seems to be an exception. The rule of law has broken down so completely it needs the law to be broken to be brought back, if that makes any sense to you. The gangsters that were killed were a bit like the mafia in that sense - everyone knew they were crooks, and everyone knew what they did. It seems the tipping point for the ruling party to execute (or 'encounter', as it is called in India) these gangsters is when they kill policemen. Since the judiciary will not punish them, it becomes necessary for the police to inculcate a fear of the police in gangsters' minds in order for their policing activities to actually be effective.
deleted 3y ago
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by windex 3y ago

screye 3y ago

We seem to disagree on the basic facts. Don't think anything productive will come out of this. I WILL save this comment and come back to it in 10 years just to be petty. (or eat my own words if it goes that way)

airocker 3y ago
Are you accepting that no amount of contrary data in 10 years would change your mind?
- screye 3y ago
  I'd hope that 'total collapse' would be self evident enough that I would not have to look at the data. But, Good data would convince me. for social collapse, 'Pew Research' has conducted stellar surveys. I'd start there. Another solid metric is low-income refugees. If a measurable number of low-income minorities start leaving India for countries of slightly higher average income (eg: Bangladesh, Philippines, Indonesia), then it's either a sign of collapse or religious authoritarianism. Differential rights is another sign. say for instance, if there exist specific laws that only Indian minorities have to follow nation-wide. As for press freedoms, every political opposition party should get to have their own newspaper that can be freely shared on social media. ie. exception to exclude any party that actively seeks independence from India. Private universities should be allowed to teach anything that is constitutional, ie: don't teach violent fundamentalism or birth based bigotry. I should be able to call Modi any non-caste-based slur (Fascist, Bigot, Loser, etc.) on social media without getting a case thrown against me or violent assaulted on the streets. The front page of the Caravan or Scroll.in (online subscription based news media, subscription so I know they will be alive unlike ad reliant ones) should still contain a scathing accusation towards the BJP as it always has. For economics, poverty and safety, the numbers should be easier to obtain. Proxy metrics like electricity availability, internet availability, infrastructure building and use rate, etc. are also great. Those are my metrics on 3 fronts.
  - deleted 3y ago
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xNeil 3y ago

There were a total of 117 lynchings in India in 2019, compared to 41 for the US in the same time period. This is the same number of lynchings on a per capita basis - while 117 lynchings is a 117 too many, the number is effectively negligible in a country of 1.2 billion people. Execution style hit jobs on rivals? When did these happen? Are you simply making up executions in your mind? Claiming India will collapse in 10 years is one of the weirdest statements I've heard in a long time. Which countries will not collapse according to your standards then? I'm honestly asking - no major country seems to be surviving the next 10 years as per your worldview. I'm open to debate, but you seem to be inventing executions in thin air. Sources: https://ncrb.gov.in/en/crime-in-india-2019 https://ncrb.gov.in/en/crime-in-india-2019 https://indianexpress.com/article/india/117-lynching-incidents-in-2019-133-deaths-ncrb-7140197/ https://indianexpress.com/article/india/117-lynching-inciden... "ADL Report: At Least 50 White Supremacist Murders in 2018" by the Anti-Defamation League: https://www.adl.org/news/press-releases/adl-report-at-least-50-white-supremacist-murders-in-2018 https://www.adl.org/news/press-releases/adl-report-at-least-... "What We Know: The Far-Right and Extremism in 2019" by the Anti-Defamation League: https://www.adl.org/resources/reports/what-we-know-the-far-right-and-extremism-in-2019 https://www.adl.org/resources/reports/what-we-know-the-far-r...

windex 3y ago
>Execution style hit jobs on rivals? When did these happen? You haven't heard of Uttar Pradesh?
- xNeil 3y ago
  I see what you're getting to - while you're not wrong, you're not right either. They're not carrying hitjobs on rivals or opponents - they're eliminating gang leaders and major criminals. The judiciary is either afraid of giving these gangsters actual sentences, or have been bribed by the gangsters. To solve this, the police has effectively taken the execution of justice into their own hand. I know it may sound absurd, and the idea of the police taking matters into their own hands would normally scare me, but Uttar Pradesh seems to be an exception. The rule of law has broken down so completely it needs the law to be broken to be brought back, if that makes any sense to you. The gangsters that were killed were a bit like the mafia in that sense - everyone knew they were crooks, and everyone knew what they did. It seems the tipping point for the ruling party to execute (or 'encounter', as it is called in India) these gangsters is when they kill policemen. Since the judiciary will not punish them, it becomes necessary for the police to inculcate a fear of the police in gangsters' minds in order for their policing activities to actually be effective.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]