20 ms·

I'll give the country 10 years to implode I am willing to take a bet for any $$ value with 10x odds in your favor to contest that claim. more inclusive, s

by screye 3y ago

I'll give the country 10 years to implode I am willing to take a bet for any $$ value with 10x odds in your favor to contest that claim. more inclusive, social justice oriented, and less violent Hot take. If you genuinely cared about these things, you'd end up a supporter of the Modi Govt. I do not mind views that are diametrically opposite to me. But, every article in western media seems to be written by someone who is 1 degree of separation from the Indian opposition. The claims are never backed by statistics, and the infographics are often so absurd that I have to wonder if I live in an upside-down world. Apparently, India has the 150th [1] least free press in the world and India has been a country with on average 2nd highest chance of genocide [2] for the entire last decade. Dig into their data a little bit, and you realize that they either only interviewed opponents of the current govt. or used zero data what-so-ever. Note: Modi is the world's most popular leader[3]. About 20% of Muslims and 30% of Christians voted for his 2nd term[4]. For reference, Republicans have never been able to come anywhere close to 20% of the black vote-share, and no is claiming that America will collapse when a Republican wins every alternate election. The opinion of the average HNer on India, is as bad as a Q-anon supporter on American issues. I apologize for the somewhat angry tone I take on these threads. I do not intend to start a culture war. But when ignorance and arrogance are paired this frivolously, I can't help but respond in kind. [1] https://rsf.org/en/index https://rsf.org/en/index [2] https://earlywarningproject.ushmm.org/countries/india https://earlywarningproject.ushmm.org/countries/india [3] https://morningconsult.com/global-leader-approval/ https://morningconsult.com/global-leader-approval/ [4] https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/06/29/nationalism-and-politics/pf_06-29-21_india-06-4/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/06/29/nationalism-... [5] my previous rants on the matter - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=author%3Ascreye%20modi&sort=byPopularity&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

int_19h 3y ago
Are you claiming that BJP under Modi isn't pushing for "Hindutva", or that the latter is somehow "more inclusive" than the policies that preceded it?
- screye 3y ago
  Yes. But not the way you might think. Let me be clear. I am not a Bhakt, don't particularly love Modi and have complained quite often about bad policies during his regime. My goal is to help people build a representative view of India, not one that fawns over Modi. The BJP absolutely pushes for Hindutva, but 'Hindutva' is an umbrella term that can mean anything from 'places greater importance on cultural traditions that have been in the subcontinent longer' to 'murderous nazis' depending on who you ask. Since you asked the question, it would help if you specify what you mean by hindutva. to your question--> what does 'inclusivity' look like? If inclusivity is complete blindness towards religion in front of the law, then you get France style secularism which BJP pushes. On the other hand, you have the Congress's secularism that is in complete contrast to those values. In that sense, both the BJP and the Congress are secular parties, without agreement on wat that term means. 85%+ of Indian muslims are pasmanda low-caste muslims. The previous govt. (congress) did not have a single pasmanda muslim represented in their govt. The BJP is now reaching out to them directly. India never had tribal representation at the national stage, and the BJP elected a tribal woman to the presidency. The BJP has time and again, promoted meritocratic candidates over nepo-babies, making the electoral system more inclusive. India is a not a nation divided on religion alone. It is mostly divided on economics. By focusing in more effective governance and distribution of social welfare, BJP's govt. has disproportionately benefited the poorer population of India. These policies do not discriminate by religion or any other identity. Western style views of inclusivity do not translate well to other nations. As for the bills like CAA, removal of 370 and the like. The Congress's own policies show that these had bipartisan support up until the BJP brought it up. I don't blame them, politics is politics. But, in isolation, both parties acknowledge that these were necessary changes for national security. The CAA was initially instituted by the Congress itself and the sorry state of section 370 at removal was also a result of bipartisan erosion of that bill over time. (it was meant to be a temporary provision anyway. But I won't get into that right now). Discussions around vague words like Hindutva and inclusivity are never productive. It would be more helpful to define what we mean by these terms. Create a list of policies implemented by the Modi govt. over the last 8 years and compare those against the govt. that came before. If there is a clear trend that emerges, then we can play ball. Or else, it is all smoke-and-mirrors. somehow "more inclusive" than the policies that preceded it? That one I can say with confidence. The congress has been a party of nepotism for so long, that Modi did not have to do too much to appear more inclusive than them. Modi's biggest strength right now, is the sheer incompetence of his opposition. They continuously pushed away their very best to the point of humiliation.
windex 3y ago
As a casual exercise, I would suggest you look for a graph of lynchings, riots, and raids in India especially of minorities and "others" for varying levels of trivial reasons by groups associated with the ruling party with patronage and overt support from it. Every festival season is open season for riots in many places. Execution style public hit jobs bypassing "due process" on rivals, criminals, and others are becoming more common. I would also have you take a hard look at the fascist speeches of sitting ministers advocating for violence in India. All of these are documented and the perpetrators and sponsors of this are in government without consequence. To make matters worse, the administration seems to be gnawing at some independence the supreme court shows by wanting to take over the appointments of Judges. It even gives judges plum positions post retirement for favorable judgements. Need I say more? Without a course correction, I'll give it 10 years.
- screye 3y ago
  We seem to disagree on the basic facts. Don't think anything productive will come out of this. I WILL save this comment and come back to it in 10 years just to be petty. (or eat my own words if it goes that way)
  - airocker 3y ago
    Are you accepting that no amount of contrary data in 10 years would change your mind?
    - screye 3y ago
      I'd hope that 'total collapse' would be self evident enough that I would not have to look at the data. But, Good data would convince me. for social collapse, 'Pew Research' has conducted stellar surveys. I'd start there. Another solid metric is low-income refugees. If a measurable number of low-income minorities start leaving India for countries of slightly higher average income (eg: Bangladesh, Philippines, Indonesia), then it's either a sign of collapse or religious authoritarianism. Differential rights is another sign. say for instance, if there exist specific laws that only Indian minorities have to follow nation-wide. As for press freedoms, every political opposition party should get to have their own newspaper that can be freely shared on social media. ie. exception to exclude any party that actively seeks independence from India. Private universities should be allowed to teach anything that is constitutional, ie: don't teach violent fundamentalism or birth based bigotry. I should be able to call Modi any non-caste-based slur (Fascist, Bigot, Loser, etc.) on social media without getting a case thrown against me or violent assaulted on the streets. The front page of the Caravan or Scroll.in (online subscription based news media, subscription so I know they will be alive unlike ad reliant ones) should still contain a scathing accusation towards the BJP as it always has. For economics, poverty and safety, the numbers should be easier to obtain. Proxy metrics like electricity availability, internet availability, infrastructure building and use rate, etc. are also great. Those are my metrics on 3 fronts.
potamic 3y ago
You have to be living under a rock to not see the continuous degradation of press freedom in the country. You can go through this research for some in-depth review https://indianculturalforum.in/2021/01/08/behind-bars-arrests-and-detentions-of-journalists-in-india-2010-2020-2/ https://indianculturalforum.in/2021/01/08/behind-bars-arrest...
- sanmon3186 3y ago
  Is it the same research that put Pakistan and Afghanistan way above India?
  - potamic 3y ago
    It's a domestic report that says nothing about other countries. I don't know what made you think of comparison to Pakistan and Afghanistan, but forgive me if I say this is classic signs of confirmation bias, where people tend to dismiss information that doesn't fit their worldview.

by screye 3y ago

int_19h 3y ago

Are you claiming that BJP under Modi isn't pushing for "Hindutva", or that the latter is somehow "more inclusive" than the policies that preceded it?

screye 3y ago
Yes. But not the way you might think. Let me be clear. I am not a Bhakt, don't particularly love Modi and have complained quite often about bad policies during his regime. My goal is to help people build a representative view of India, not one that fawns over Modi. The BJP absolutely pushes for Hindutva, but 'Hindutva' is an umbrella term that can mean anything from 'places greater importance on cultural traditions that have been in the subcontinent longer' to 'murderous nazis' depending on who you ask. Since you asked the question, it would help if you specify what you mean by hindutva. to your question--> what does 'inclusivity' look like? If inclusivity is complete blindness towards religion in front of the law, then you get France style secularism which BJP pushes. On the other hand, you have the Congress's secularism that is in complete contrast to those values. In that sense, both the BJP and the Congress are secular parties, without agreement on wat that term means. 85%+ of Indian muslims are pasmanda low-caste muslims. The previous govt. (congress) did not have a single pasmanda muslim represented in their govt. The BJP is now reaching out to them directly. India never had tribal representation at the national stage, and the BJP elected a tribal woman to the presidency. The BJP has time and again, promoted meritocratic candidates over nepo-babies, making the electoral system more inclusive. India is a not a nation divided on religion alone. It is mostly divided on economics. By focusing in more effective governance and distribution of social welfare, BJP's govt. has disproportionately benefited the poorer population of India. These policies do not discriminate by religion or any other identity. Western style views of inclusivity do not translate well to other nations. As for the bills like CAA, removal of 370 and the like. The Congress's own policies show that these had bipartisan support up until the BJP brought it up. I don't blame them, politics is politics. But, in isolation, both parties acknowledge that these were necessary changes for national security. The CAA was initially instituted by the Congress itself and the sorry state of section 370 at removal was also a result of bipartisan erosion of that bill over time. (it was meant to be a temporary provision anyway. But I won't get into that right now). Discussions around vague words like Hindutva and inclusivity are never productive. It would be more helpful to define what we mean by these terms. Create a list of policies implemented by the Modi govt. over the last 8 years and compare those against the govt. that came before. If there is a clear trend that emerges, then we can play ball. Or else, it is all smoke-and-mirrors. somehow "more inclusive" than the policies that preceded it? That one I can say with confidence. The congress has been a party of nepotism for so long, that Modi did not have to do too much to appear more inclusive than them. Modi's biggest strength right now, is the sheer incompetence of his opposition. They continuously pushed away their very best to the point of humiliation.

windex 3y ago

As a casual exercise, I would suggest you look for a graph of lynchings, riots, and raids in India especially of minorities and "others" for varying levels of trivial reasons by groups associated with the ruling party with patronage and overt support from it. Every festival season is open season for riots in many places. Execution style public hit jobs bypassing "due process" on rivals, criminals, and others are becoming more common. I would also have you take a hard look at the fascist speeches of sitting ministers advocating for violence in India. All of these are documented and the perpetrators and sponsors of this are in government without consequence. To make matters worse, the administration seems to be gnawing at some independence the supreme court shows by wanting to take over the appointments of Judges. It even gives judges plum positions post retirement for favorable judgements. Need I say more? Without a course correction, I'll give it 10 years.

screye 3y ago
We seem to disagree on the basic facts. Don't think anything productive will come out of this. I WILL save this comment and come back to it in 10 years just to be petty. (or eat my own words if it goes that way)
- airocker 3y ago
  Are you accepting that no amount of contrary data in 10 years would change your mind?
  - screye 3y ago
    I'd hope that 'total collapse' would be self evident enough that I would not have to look at the data. But, Good data would convince me. for social collapse, 'Pew Research' has conducted stellar surveys. I'd start there. Another solid metric is low-income refugees. If a measurable number of low-income minorities start leaving India for countries of slightly higher average income (eg: Bangladesh, Philippines, Indonesia), then it's either a sign of collapse or religious authoritarianism. Differential rights is another sign. say for instance, if there exist specific laws that only Indian minorities have to follow nation-wide. As for press freedoms, every political opposition party should get to have their own newspaper that can be freely shared on social media. ie. exception to exclude any party that actively seeks independence from India. Private universities should be allowed to teach anything that is constitutional, ie: don't teach violent fundamentalism or birth based bigotry. I should be able to call Modi any non-caste-based slur (Fascist, Bigot, Loser, etc.) on social media without getting a case thrown against me or violent assaulted on the streets. The front page of the Caravan or Scroll.in (online subscription based news media, subscription so I know they will be alive unlike ad reliant ones) should still contain a scathing accusation towards the BJP as it always has. For economics, poverty and safety, the numbers should be easier to obtain. Proxy metrics like electricity availability, internet availability, infrastructure building and use rate, etc. are also great. Those are my metrics on 3 fronts.

potamic 3y ago

You have to be living under a rock to not see the continuous degradation of press freedom in the country. You can go through this research for some in-depth review https://indianculturalforum.in/2021/01/08/behind-bars-arrests-and-detentions-of-journalists-in-india-2010-2020-2/ https://indianculturalforum.in/2021/01/08/behind-bars-arrest...

sanmon3186 3y ago
Is it the same research that put Pakistan and Afghanistan way above India?
- potamic 3y ago
  It's a domestic report that says nothing about other countries. I don't know what made you think of comparison to Pakistan and Afghanistan, but forgive me if I say this is classic signs of confirmation bias, where people tend to dismiss information that doesn't fit their worldview.